Don't Confuse Dagger Squads with Freelance Groups

Hey Everyone,

I'm seeing Dagger Squad thrown around like blue light specials at K-Mart. The Dagger Squad is an extension of the main raid force. It IS NOT a freelance group that does what they want when they want. The main force serves as a distraction so that it opens up our dagger squads to strike their flank where they are weakest. 

If you are leading a Freelance Group please do not refer to it as a dagger squad. Dagger Squads are skill groups and should be comprised of our sPvP players who have unified their core group to perfection. They need to be able to strike when and where instructed and even at times throw themselves against a force much larger than them. They need to take what we ask them to take when we ask them to take. More importantly they need to keep constant communication with the raid leader. 

This is not a do what you wish type of group. This is a strategic placement group. The biggest factor limiting our success right now is keeping resources flowing. The dagger squad must be willing to escort doylaks to where they are needed or run supplies to the front line as needed. This is not a XP farming group that takes a supply point and move on. We need our Dagger Squads to be unified. Know each other, trust each other, and be able to turn the tide of a fight. These should be 5 man teams.

I'm contemplating holding a Dagger Squad training and explaining meeting as there seems to be a lot of confusion on what this unit is. I'd also like to remind everyone that our success on a battlefield can not happen if EVERYONE is in a dagger squad. We need the main force big enough to distract the enemy zerg so that our Dagger Squad has a chance to flank. If we're all Dagger Squads there is no distraction and we end up going 5 vs 100. Guarenteed loss. Both parts of the puzzle require each other. There must be a main force (typically non-skill players) and a Dagger group (High Skilled Players) for this forumula to work properly. Otherwise all your doing is spreading out our force which will be a nuissance on foes but it will be weak and unable to take on the enemy force at all.

If you want to be in a Dagger Group you need to put together a 5 man team, start doing sPvP with them, then take it to the battlefield and start practicing. The same 5 people should be working together every week, every day. They must get to know each others behavure, tendoncies, and character prefference. This is not a random pickup group. This is a Tactical Unit built for death.

I say yes to this: "I'm contemplating holding a Dagger Squad training and explaining meeting". Ill be there

Understood sir. Most of the time i'm in WvWvW I start groups to take and defend supply camps and keep supply lines open. It's not the funnies thing to do, but I know its vital to the war effort and above all, it's something most people won't do if there is something juicier for them to attack and take. I'm aware these are not Dagger groups, even if I used the term wrongly in the past, because we lack the specialization, the training and the acquaintance with each other to work as effectively as a dagger group. I'm looking forward for the Dagger Team training. It seems I may be cut from the right material to be part of one, and I am willing to at least give it a try.

In Warhammer, the Dagger group were basically a small group charged with performing the thankless but necessary tasks required to sustain a mass PvP campaign. In a game where the majority were obsessively worried about missing out on the slightest rewards on offer, it was a hard sell to get people willing to act apart from the main "zerg". Thus the Dagger was tasked with patrolling and protecting objectives that promised little to no rewards beyond the satisfaction of a good fight (often an heroic sacrifice against impossible odds) and knowing the task was vital towards overall victory. To be part of the Dagger was to sacrifice for the greater good (as most aspects of Gaiscioch tend to be), often missing out on the big points, the ensured victories, and the more exciting aspects of gameplay. The "Dagger" is an evocative title, but as Foghladha mentions, in GW2 this may translate to such boring tasks as guarding Doylaks, running supply, or keeping watch over vital objectives after the main force moves on. Whatever is vital to supporting the overall objective of the main force at the time. Of course, at times the opposite may also be true, and those are the moments the Dagger lives for - defending an objective against a far superior force just long enough for the main force to get there in time to save it, or launching a coordinated strike into the flank of an enemy force as the main force hits the front.

I might be alone here, but I don't mind escorting the Yak's all that much. You don't get rewards, but I often get the best PvP surrounding the escort missions. 2v3, 3v5 types of encounters are very common. Much more fun I think, than the random spam your AoE fests that the large encounters usually come down to.

A critical thing missing then is a third type of group besides the zerg and dagger groups, commando style groups disrupting the enemy supply lines and causing the enemy behind the line problems. If, dagger groups are going to run supply to the line, and hold supply points then there is an obvious need for another type of group. The zerg shouldn't be concerned with supply camps, only larger objectives like keeps, towers, and garrisons. The dagger groups should then be task squads supporting the zerg and holding our supply, and the commando groups should be out taking enemy dolyaks, capturing control points, and harassing enemy stragglers. As Sun Tzu, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and a host of other great military minds noted disrupting the enemy is a major component of victory.

You need to remember Khy0te, Ever 5 man team you take out of your force, weakens your force as a whole. The more we have division of troops the less likely we can stand up to a foe larger sized. Remember we're not the only ones on that battle field. We need to account for the PuG's. If were facing a 100 man Sorrows Furnace zerg, we're going to need at least 2/3 of our force there fighting them or we wont succeed. The problem im having is everyone wants to be part of the freelancers. Thus splitting our force up into tiny fragments. If I only have 20 people following me how do you expect me to stand against 100. We need strength in both areas. I typically like to run with 2 5-man dagger squads on the field. If I need them running supplies to us I task them with that. If I need them cutting off supply lines to the keep we assault I task them with that. If I need them to prep a wall I task them with that. But the key here is that they need to be ready to do what needs to be done at the time they need it to be done. Trust me I know how cutting a supply line helps. Have you not been at any of my events? First thing I do is drown their supplys. We show assault where we're not going to strike so they blow all their supply on siege and repairs then when their out we attack another door leaving them with no supply to defend themselves with. If I have a force that will follow my purpose we can be victorious. But when I have 10 freelance groups on the field not listening to a word I say all we are is an unorganized mess of Pugs. Have you not seen what that gets us over the past few weeks? "United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

pretty much what khyote said is what i have posted in numerous threads , explaining the importantce of shrimsh groups killing stagglers and distupting the other team in their back lines , as being very inportant to winning , I got burned out on S pvp many years ago esp after the grind fest they had for sc weapons in warhammer, but also years of it in wow grinding out gear sets , So i don`rt see me joing a elite 5 man spvp team just to do W v W , and since my fps doesn`t allow me to be very effective in the zerg events we do i havn`t been doing them really either ., And after 4 years of zerging in warhammer , as well as running small scale skrimsh groups , i find skrimsh play way more fun . So guess i`ll be freelancing in the W v W . since my pc doesn`t allow me to be of any use in the big zerg fights anyway . But to make sure i don`t split up any of our zerg troops , i`ll fill it with random pugs and won`t be claiming particition at a GSCH event when i do .

» Edited on: 2012-10-01 10:46:29

The Dagger group at the Blue Borderland event last night did an excellent job. I forget the name of the person leading that group but she did great. She was very focused on what the leader needed or might need, was very cooperative, and helped keep an eye on the tactical situation which is really what you want from that type of group. I just started up on GW2 I wanted to stay away but just couldn't. It's been a long time since I've had a game make me feel like a total noob. I'm learning the Elementalist (which is like playing piano) and the options and tactics available in WvWvW are amazing. I have a lot of learning and growing to do as a player but I'm interested in coming to any meeting scheduled and getting up to speed. You also make really good points about force dilution; in DAOC I used to have to run my side groups back into the main and back out again to drop off the zerg they'd collect. Sometimes I could use it to my advantage, most of the time it left me too split up.

» Edited on: 2012-10-01 10:52:01

I dont think that I have the elite skills to be part of a dagger team, but of we were to put together a defense group, I would be interested in that. Homeland Security =D

Really taking out 5 man teams does not weaken the force as a whole, if you send a few small teams out to hold positions and disrupt the enemy you divert more of the enemies forces away from your main force, giving you main force more freedom to act even though it is a slightly reduced size. I have been in a couple of your groups but most Thursdays I have real life obligations so can't make it too all (most). IMO you don't keep enough pressure on behind the enemy lines. I realize that we disagree there, you think you do or you would send more. In a totally different vein... I think the sPvP requirement is crazy for the dagger groups, you don't need to sPvP to know what your group-mates are going to do; how they are going to react. Time with any fairly regular group of people in any type of PvP gives you the knowledge required.

Khy0te, 5 man groups, in batches of 10 = 50 people. 50 less people that we have to stand up agains the enemy force. Yes 2 5 man teams doesn't hurt too bad, however when 2 becomes 10 then yes in fact it does cripple the offensive. the problem im having is that the majority of the force wants to go do their own thing. Thus scattering our force and making it impossible to make any kind of organized offensive. When we're hosting events it would be nice to support our troops not ensure their humiliation. We can't get pug's to follow us when our own people wont follow us.

This is why I was insisting in the middle nodes of the chain of command in the other thread. So we can divide and NOT divide our forces as the commander sees fit. I agree with Foghladha when he says that we need the dagger as much as we need the hammer. Myself, I love to run with the main group. I play with elementalist and ranger, and both are very useful in the mass PvP fights. As an elementalist I'm much happier being with the big groups than risking outnumbered skirmishes in the back alleys of the map, but I'm aware a soldier must be willing to do what is thankless, what won't attract the freelance players, what nobody else would want to do. This is why I was stressing the need of the small strike teams, and announcing my willingness to be part of them. But if all our force becomes a shapeless mass of strike teams going everywhere and nowhere, we have a problem. The main point, that can't be stressed enough, is: if we have a leader and we trust him, we must do as he tells us to do. Join the zerg if you're commanded to do so. Split and do a side job if you are told so. If you are not following orders, you're not helping AND you're taking the slot of someone who could be helping. United we stand, divided we fall.

"In a totally different vein... I think the sPvP requirement is crazy for the dagger groups, you don't need to sPvP to know what your group-mates are going to do; how they are going to react. Time with any fairly regular group of people in any type of PvP gives you the knowledge required." -Khy0te A group that runs together and practices together will perform better together. If you are serious about being battle tested than there is no better place than sPvP. You are artificially increasing the number of engagements you have as a team because factors like travel and waiting are not relevant. On the other side of the argument in my experience it is pretty rare for the same group of people to always be on though. I'm sure there's a solution in there somewhere if we put our heads together. Force concentration plays a bigger role then some people are realizing in all of this though. In a scenario where you can just keep adding people to both sides sending people off on their own squads or whatever not only makes sense it is necessary. Past a certain point it becomes really, really hard for people to render that many people on the screen. We don't play in that scenario though. Both sides are limited to the force they can exert to influence map conditions. You have several mitigating factors that can be taken advantage of (that is the essence of the art of war) but essentially the side that has the most people will win. Unit cohesion is extremely important given the force we can exert. If we expect others outside of the family to show discipline then we have to exhibit it ourselves at all times. I think most of us deep down like the idea of being super commandos or whatever but in reality if everyone wants to be a unique and special snowflake than all we are doing is snowing on the enemy while they are taking our keeps. This game is really the next evolution of open realm warfare. Our tactics will evolve and change as we learn and grow together out of necessity if nothing else. I think everyone wants to win; it's a lot more fun. I think that we need to figure out what it takes to win, what opposes us, and take the logical steps to win. Logically the best thing we can do right now is to master basic formations and strategies before we try to do more fancy stuff. We may know what we are doing but a lot of the people outside of the family that run with us don't. We are fortunate to be burdened with the visibility and responsibility that leadership entails; sometimes we may need to make some compromises to bring people up to our level.

» Edited on: 2012-10-01 16:45:43

sPvP is really quite good in GW2. You'll learn more in an hour of sPvP than you will in a week of WvW, I reckon. Really takes gear level and all that out of the equation and puts a microscope on how you can manage with your team. It definitely won't detract from your WvW.

So it's a lot of sPvP for me. I'll drop a line in the guild channel when I'm on, so to try and find some people to go there with me.

I never meant to imply anything like 10 groups out, I was thinking in the 4 to 5 group range (and of course the amount of players we have on a given night would also be a factor). With that objectives can be held by the smaller groups either singly or lending each other support. And, still have groups being able to harass the enemies. Solvarn, you are correct in saying that it does increase the amount of engagements, however they are in (more) limited scenarios. The effect of being able to handle a group well on the small maps of sPvP does not totally translate to WvW. It is not some end all training for all PvP. Additionally you are limited in the skills you can use, the racial skills are eliminated from sPvP, so it actually cripples you in learning about them and how to use them; just as an example of how sPvP isn't the perfect training for all types of PvP. I would also like to point out that I don't have any issues with anyone here, I have a difference of opinion on this matter. I, also, feel that there must always be dissent from within to keep leaders thinking about different ways of operating, if not stagnation will set in and when stagnation sets in growth and development cease.

I must say I enjoyed the time I spent with Prissy's dagger squad last night when there was an opening but since I don't have the ability to be on every night (the WvW times match up pretty much exactly with our dinner time) and I do not consider myself skilled at sPvP I guess it is just the zerg. So right now to me WvW is basically follow a bunch of people around, die, go back to the waypoint then try and get back to the zerg without dying again. Ah well not too bad to be cannon fodder once in a while I guess.

Khy0te I agree it definitely isn't the same thing. Being an elementalist and super squishy I tend to have a much harder time in sPvP than I do in WvWvW but then again I'm pretty new and have a lot to learn about my class still.

I think complex and effective usage of more than 2 dagger squads while theoretically enticing is beyond the capabilities of our guild and the current WVW dynamic. Once we have a few months of practice under our belt, we may be able to use more complicated tactics, but as Foghladha has implied, we must learn to crawl before we can walk, let alone run. I do have some suggestions though: Consider putting a 5 man group of sneaky, selfless individuals on independent ops as semi-permanent straggler harassment. A 5-man working well baiting, ambushing, and distracting stragglers in areas near their spawn can severely limit enemy reinforcements. This is a case where 5 players siphoned from the main force can reduce the enemy zerg by 8-15 on average. This is particularly true on our home borderlands map. Rival servers can easily be enticed to fight each over the south-center island and nearby objectives between the two rival spawns. Once a solid front forms between them, it's a perfect time for the zerg to push a keep. Once I was able to coordinate two 5 man groups to put a ballista on both the east and west bridges of that south-center island. By the time our groups were overrun after maybe 30 kills, they started putting up their own siege there encouraging such a vigorous fight between the two servers that we managed to take the remaining 2 keeps in about 25 minutes and hold one of them for hours. One PUG management tool I learned from Warhammer and DAOC dagger groups that works well was hinted at by Solvarn and that's to run your dagger group(s) through to your main force periodically when they attract PuGs to help bolster your main force numbers. Also, if you have the luxury of having 2 commander tome'd leaders, I'd keep them both with the main zerg as a pair of commanders is four times the PUG magnet a single commander is nowadays. Lastly, when we're blessed enough to have a nice showing of 30-60 or more in raidcall for a WvW event, I highly recommend trying things to streamline the flow of communication. Personally, I prefer to have enemy location reports and gate health updates related to the main zerg all communicated in /team in text unless an update is specifically asked for by the leader. All too often in heated assaults or defenses, data and intel are pushed too fervently and concurrently in voice chat and there isn't enough free airtime to talk tactics and give orders. I recommend tasking a few veterans with helping the leader keep up with team chat intel and process that intel into voice chat recommendations to the leader when appropriate. PUG players also respond well to strong communication in /team and they'll be more likely to stick with an obviously well-organized group than do their own thing.

» Edited on: 2012-10-02 00:47:21

I've been calling them Commando squads or Wolf Packs. This is the first time I've ever even heard the term, "Dagger Squad". Either way, I'll try to be there.

I ran with a dagger squad last night durring spartan's WvW and quite enjoyed it. I forget the leaders name right now off the top of my head. Anyways if anyone is interested in forming up as a dagger squad and going into some sPvP together to train annd get a feel for how the others play and such let me know and we'll get together and train up :D i would very much enjoy that.

I've been running a fair number of pick-up (unscheduled) W3 events lately and most of those end up being groups of 8-12 GSCH members of varying skill levels. Call it what you want, wolf pack, dagger, commando, whatever, the overall strategy remains the same - harass and distract the enemy in a way that bolsters the overall objective of the main force (zerg, hammer, whatever you want to call it) in the zone. Some classes/builds are obviously more well suited for small group play than others, but I don't really see that as a deal breaker in GW2. In previous games, yes, but not so much here. On that point, I think I (we) have been able to achieve a good amount of success running this type of group even when coordinating with a PUG zerg, and much more success would be expected while coordinating with a GSCH hammer group. I have had many people tell me that they enjoy this style of play that that they feel like they are really "doing something" rather than following the green dots. That said, I agree with Ben and others that you really only need a couple of these skirmish groups roaming a zone before they start to become redundant, and also, this type of play really needs a large friendly force to play off of and support. Anyhow, I think the point I'm trying to make is that you don't necessarily need top-notch sPvP (I am glory rank 20+, but that is beside the point) players to form a "dagger" group, but more importantly, people who are in RaidCall, listen to instructions, and are able to put the team ahead of themselves. When I run a small group, we tend to do a lot of porting back to the way point, hit-and-run, escorting supply deliveries, and 'tactical retreating'. So long as the leader of the group knows the general capabilities of the group (s)he's running with (only usually takes a couple fights to determine this) (s)he can make decisions accordingly.

» Edited on: 2012-10-02 05:57:39

if we are worried about taking away forces from the main zerg group , by having full groups of GSCH in the skrimsh groups etc, there are a few ways to solve that , 1 way is instead of having full groups of GSCH doing the skrimsh you have 4 or 5 all start their own group and fill it with random pugs , that way he groups are working with the main group but it doesn`t weaken the main group from being large enough to zerg the map to victory . I was hoping the pugs or smaller guilds would figure it out by now after watching the other servers use the same tactics on us and set up their own groups . but then i rememberd in warhammer most pugs running around in the lakes didn`t catch on to stuff very fast . Like the best outcome would be pugs would see woa those other servers have ninja groups screwing up our supply and killing us trying to leave our spawn to fight with zerg ... hmm we should try that . but after seeing it for the last 4 years i know i`m aiming a bit high lol .

I guess I better start plunging my toons into the sPvP Mists, then.

Kale, the important part is not the spvp. The important part is building your core and learning what each other can and will do. Find a group then work together a lot.

I agree with what has been said about sPvP, on both sides. While it is true that sPvP skills do not directly translate to WvW, you will face players that are more skilled on average than many that you'll run into in WvW. This greater challenge is a superb learning environment to learn one's class, how to work with other classes well, and what sort of threats one can anticipate from enemies. It is also a good environment to learn focusing and coordinating things like root + AoE. For these reasons I agree that sPvP is a good place for those that want to commit to a dagger group to train.