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Friday Raiders

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Soren
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Posted On: 12/06/2015 at 05:13 PM
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Hey all.

So we've been raiding now for 3 weeks and I'm starting to see some groups players getting frustrated with our progress. One of the main questions I keep getting sent to me is the following:

Why can't we, an organized guild group not beat Vale Guardian when a random group of pugs with no TS can do it with minutes to spare?

I've noticed 2 major reasons for this:

1. High player turnover and lack of commitment in sign-ups - this means that our teams are changing so much that we can't keep a consistent group together and we never know if we are going to have enough to form teams until the event is supposed to start. This is leaving me scrambling to find people to fill slots and sometimes turning away guildies because we can't field a team


2. We are lacking in DPS - basically we are failing at all counts in meeting the raids DPS checks

So how do we mitigate this? For starters we need to start seeing a bit more commitment form those wanting to raid. I have no problems throwing a team together last minute but do realize that will make our goals to be a mid-range raiding team hard to reach. The next and probably the most important thing though, is lack of DPS. GW2 has set raids up as a catch 22. This means that while ArenaNet wants to promote a very play how you want mentality, it is almost impossible with timers and DPS checks. Timers ensure that teams must do a specific amount of damage by a certain time to be successful. For vale Guardian you must be into the first split by the 6 minute mark - that gives you a narrow window of 2 minutes to get things done.

Now I know the zerk meta gets a lot of flak but there is no changing that it is needed based off the way GW2 combat works, and if we want to have a realistic chance of beating Vale Guardian everyone needs to embrace that as fact and understand that they should be kitted out the best damage gear possible. This means that all our team mates should be in DPS gear. The only exceptions would be a Tank (should still be able to do decent dps and not need more than 1600 toughness) and Condi Specs (Sinister or Viper, Carrion if absolute necessary). We need to remember that each player has a heal and while we do have Druids now for healing, a team should not be relying on that 1 player to keep everyone up. A Healers job should be to keep the tank up, everyone else should be able to keep themselves up by being aware of what is going on and positioning. Traits are where you can deviate somewhat but you should always keep in mind that DPS is king and trait accordingly.

 

I'd like to open up this thread for discussion and observation and suggestions for how we can up our game. It's clear that everyone understands the mechanics of the fights but might not necessarily know how to gear or trait to max out that dps. You're opinions all matter so please post away. This thread isn't meant to belittle or tell people they are doing it wrong. It's simply things that me and a few other high level raiders have noticed. If we can get over this hump I have no doubt we will start seeing success.

~Soren

 

Last Edited on: 12/07/2015 at 01:25 PM
If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Response:

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JaeOnasi
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Replied On: 12/06/2015 at 06:05 PM PST
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I'm looking forward to being around more. The Friday Holiday Party Nights are definitely NOT my thing!

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Archy
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 01:03 AM PST

The number one killer of the raids I've been in is the circle duty for the ranged people. There's either not enough people in the circles, or not enough CC to get rid of the seekers near the circles.

Ranged dps are always the hardest to find, at least when I'm putting together raids, and often it's a melee that has to fill the spot since no one volunteers to go ranged.

Staff Tempest is a decent option with a knockback and a stun. But they're also second, if not top, in condi dps. Plus I think they're second in healing. PLUS then there's me who tanks as a tempest :p

For anyone that's interested in my tempest tank build, it's here. My toughness is determined by whoever has the most toughness is the group.  I know Soren says you should be tanking with about 1400 toughness, but most times I'm running at about 1800-2000 because so many people have lots of toughness.  Please drop your toughness from your gear if you're not the tank as it reduces the dps that the tank can do.

I was just told scrappers are good for cc and condi, but don't know engi enough to confirm.

Had more thoughts but got busy sorry!

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BananaPancakes
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 01:11 AM PST
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I'd love to commit to a raid party, but the current scheduled raid event is not something I can commit to. I have other commitments with my family at 6pm on Friday nights, otherwise I'd be there. 

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 07:55 AM PST

Looking at the videos I've recorded of most of the groups I can safely say that the most important part is synergy. We have lots of good players and while DPS is king we are not able to focus the dps where it is needed as we have to many people not synergizing with the rest of the team. 

  • Circle team
    • Needs to have 5 people assigned to it, you only need four but it's your duty to focus this mechanic 100% 
    • You are supposed to focus on dpsing the boss as well but the team is counting on you to do this role
  • Condi Split Team
    • You need to work together to keep people up
    • Coordinate heals with each other 
    • Seekers need to be either knocked back, barriered, or rooted. 
  • Blue Split Team
    • Assign boon strippers to raid members and have them communicate to overlay them without much gap
    • Focus on dpsing while moving to the green circle in this phase it should matter if you are in circle group or not
  • After split Casting (Phase 3)
    • Breaking that bar is more important than avoiding the red circles.. I see more people run from circles than trying to break that bar. The beatings will continue until moral improves.. and so will those circles unless you break that bar :P
    • Move as a group if you stay on the same side of the pie on the platform the green circles will stay in that zone. If that tank moves the boss to green from red and one person is on the red still then a circle can spawn in the red thus hurting you in the movement. This is confirmed

Other notes:

  1. From what I can tell it's not one person messing up a group. I've recorded most GSCH raid events and several others that are not GSCH specific. Most of the time it's about 3-4 players missing circles or getting downed constantly that will disrupt the majority of the group
  2. Last night I was with a GSCH sponsored group where this situation occured: Two members got tele'd out of circle, massive dps spike... downed two players in blue field (right after split), four members went to rez those down, then the blue field lit up and killed all 6 of them, thus the circles didn't have enough and it massive spiked us again.
  3. DPS is a big issue, just remember you do more dps up than down 
  4. This is unconfirmed, but watching the videos there is a strong suggestion showing that the circle proximity is based due to the furthest person from the boss, IE if everyone is up close to the boss the circles will be closer to the boss if not underneath him. If people are spread out it will be balanced. This brings me to the conclusion that it might be randomly selecting a raid member to place them on as I've been "selected" several times where I don't have to move at all. I've also video several ranged moving from spots that they were just at and then a circle spawns. - Unconfirmed but is good to kept thought of in the back of your head. If this is true than spacing can make the fight a bit more manageable on the first and fourth phase.

I have a few ideas for the lack of commitment from players meeting the raid times however I'd like to talk to Soren about them as this is kind of her thing. So Soren lets chat on like FB or something.

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Soren
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 08:41 AM PST
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This is unconfirmed, but watching the videos there is a strong suggestion showing that the circle proximity is based due to the furthest person from the boss, IE if everyone is up close to the boss the circles will be closer to the boss if not underneath him. If people are spread out it will be balanced. This brings me to the conclusion that it might be randomly selecting a raid member to place them on as I've been "selected" several times where I don't have to move at all. I've also video several ranged moving from spots that they were just at and then a circle spawns. - Unconfirmed but is good to kept thought of in the back of your head. If this is true than spacing can make the fight a bit more manageable on the first and fourth phase.

 

This might be worth testing out if anyone gets the chance. If we can keep our circle runners close thus will also improve dps and seeker control greatly :)

Another thing I should mention is a strat that I picked up from a pug group I was with -> not sure if everyone has seen/heard of it so I will outline it hear in case other groups would like to try it.

During the split phase my group has been sending the tank to green to hold green at its pylon, keeping 2 condi at red (last week is was Rylssa on a condi Engi and me on a condi Reaper), and sending everyone else to blue. The idea is that the mob can dps blue down exceptionally fast and then move to green. The attunement debuff doesn't do enough damage and while in a group the heals keep everyone up. Green falls shortly after and by the time it is done red either has out right killed there guy or they are in the breakbar phase. This has noticeably made up time if the group is behind going into the split.

And to reiterate, I don't think it's 1 person causing things to go wrong either, it's a combination of little things that are adding up that the group needs to work on as a whole that is keeping us from success. Jace I'd love to hear ideas on how to get our groups more synergized. I know this month is going to be hell considering both Christmas and New Years fall on a Friday lol.

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Gaspara112
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 10:34 AM PST
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A few things that are unfortunately important factors of success in raids.

  1. Party composition matters a lot.  
    1. Maximizing the damage on your build matters and makes a big difference. +% damage traits are HUGE and should almost always be taken. Party wide buff traits/skills are also pretty huge. Especially spotter(ranger-skirmishing), empower allies (warrior-tactics), assassin's presence(Revenant-devastation), Banner of strength, and Banner of discipline. These should all be in your build if you play these classes because of the amount they add to the group.
    2. Class specific party stat buff traits while huge, don't stack so having more than 2 of any class using those traits is wasting trait slots. Unless a class adds a high amount of personal DPS and a high amount of group utility (DPS Herald(perma offensive boons && high tier cc)/Condi Engi(top tier condi and cc)) no group should exceed 2 of the same class unless the team has multiple clear experience and the best builds and gear.
    3. Having perma 20+ might stacks is near mandatory to have needed dps, this means having a PS warrior/2+ Strength rune heralds are absolutely necessary
    4. A good Mesmer can dramatically increase team DPS while still providing pretty high personal DPS but the class is quite hard to play to this level so its not a good choice for most players.
    5. The Healing stat is still not as important as it probably should be so maxing out healing power on a healer is not necessary and some of the healers trait should focus on adding to team damage (Druids should get spotter and bring Frost Spirit as a skill for example)
    6. The Tank should be built to be mostly self sufficient as their received damage is mostly predictable an can be negated/reduced with proper dodging/blocking/reduction skills. This leaves the Healer the time to focus on DPS and the less predictable raid damage.
  2. Food and Maintenance add a lot more than you think. Every player should be using level 80 food and maint for their role. Unfortunately raiding can be expensive until your group gets successful enough to make it profitable.
  3. Phase 1 DPS is SUPER important. Phase 1 has the least to worry about and using that to get ahead of the clock is very important to completely the encounters. Any skills that increase personal or party DPS should be used to maximize DPS on phase 1.
  4. Knowing which skills do more damage and which actually do less is important to knowing what skills to do when. Due to a lack of a damage meter built in GW2 this information is hard to study on your own, so most of us must rely on players with a better understanding of the combat system or that use programs analyzing their combat logs to determine them to help maximize our personal dps.
  5. Awareness and communication is key. Calling out mechanics is important to making sure everyone that needs to be aware is aware. If you see something that has not been called by the team caller, say something.

 

 

Archy for Ele Tanking you should try switching Earth's Embrace for Elemental Shielding and try D/F or D/W for more blocks and 100% protection uptime.



» Edited on: 2015-12-07 11:16:08

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Yulan
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 11:58 AM PST

The main difference between regular content and raids is that DPS gear is not just welcome, but required. There is a timer that needs to be beaten, and there's nothing we can do about it: ANET decided to kill the Berserker meta's controversy through making it necessary for raids, and it's something we should accept if we ever want to give raids a true attempt. 

That said, I believe a lot of people in Gaiscioch has the will to contribute with the group and both the desire and capacity to beat the content, it's just that our personal opinions differ on what is enough DPS to play the role, enough Toughness for tanking, etc (and it isn't something any of us should be embarrassed about, ANET itself teached us to play this game like that until now).

So my suggestion is, since our fundamental enemy is the time limit, rule that out by bringing the absolute maximum of DPS possible and work out our other difficults from there - I'm saying that because there's little point in trying to learn how to survive with tanky gear only to have to learn it again as a glass cannon when the team discovers it lacks the DPS required to beat the boss. We can always help you survive in full Berserker's, but we can't compensate your personal damage if you're using Soldier's.

Extra note: If you don't agree with the way raids work or feel there's nothing you can do to improve your performance, don't forget that this content, by design, is not meant for anyone. There will always be a portion of the playerbase that will never beat or enjoy it, and there isn't a single reason to feel diminished if you're part of it - this is a massively multiplayer game, with different content for different people.

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 12:32 PM PST

  1. Party composition matters a lot.  Agreed we need to ask what we should bring to fill the group.. not "well this is what we have so lets go" however at present time not much we can do about it.
    1. Maximizing the damage on your build matters and makes a big difference. +% damage traits are HUGE and should almost always be taken. Party wide buff traits/skills are also pretty huge. Especially spotter(ranger-skirmishing), empower allies (warrior-tactics), assassin's presence(Revenant-devastation), Banner of strength, and Banner of discipline. These should all be in your build if you play these classes because of the amount they add to the group.
    2. Class specific party stat buff traits are huge but don't stack so having more than 2 of any class using those traits is wasting trait slots. Unless a class adds a high amount of personal DPS and a high amount of group utility (DPS Herald/Condi Engi) no group should exceed 2 of the same class unless the team has multiple clear experience and the best builds and gear. 
    3. Having perma 20+ might stacks is near mandatory to have needed dps, this means having a PS warrior/2+ Strength rune heralds are absolutely necessary I have to disagree with this as it's possible to do this boss with lower end might. If you look at the videos of our raids you will see that DPS is ok until things start messing up. In Archy's we had phase one at 6:45 most of the time a few times better than that but we started missing things like circles and teleports. When four people get teleported thats a major loss.
    4. A good Mesmer can dramatically increase team DPS while still providing pretty high personal DPS but the class is quite hard to play to this level so its not a good choice for most players.
    5. The Healing stat is still not as important as it probably should be so maxing out healing power on a healer is not necessary and some of the healers trait should focus on adding to team damage (Druids should get spotter and bring Frost Spirit as a skill for example)
    6. The Tank should be built to be mostly self sufficient as their received damage is mostly predictable an can be negated/reduced with proper dodging/blocking/reduction skills. This leaves the Healer the time to focus on DPS and the less predictable raid damage. Can't agree more to this. Also tanks need to be "just tanky enough" Don't over do it
  2. Food and Maintenance add a lot more than you think. Every player should be using level 80 food and maint for their role. Unfortunately raiding can be expensive until your group gets successful enough to make it profitable. I have to disagree with this on one point. In my first couple of videos we didn't have food or maintenance on everyone and we actually got really far and meet the timers, yes it's a good boost but It's not that make it or break it thing that people make it out to be.
  3. Phase 1 DPS is SUPER important. Phase 1 has the least to worry about and using that to get ahead of the clock is very important to completely the encounters. Any skills that increase personal or party DPS should be used to maximize DPS on phase 1. Agreed... phase 1 is where you put everything on cooldown and burn... it's the first "burn phase" and if we can get a fast one then the other phases can have issues.
  4. Knowing which skills do more damage and which actually do less is important to knowing what skills to do when. Due to a lack of a damage meter built in GW2 this information is hard to study on your own, so most of us must rely on players with a better understanding of the combat system or that use programs analyzing their combat logs to determine them to help maximize our personal dps.
  5. Awareness and communication is key. Calling out mechanics is important to making sure everyone that needs to be aware is aware. If you see something that has not been called by the team caller, say something. This is kind of a crutch (a good one at the start of learning) and should be done reactively, while we need this when learning the fights the individual raider needs to learn the mechanics.. having to call somthing out everytime tells me that someone does't understand. If I'm in a group and I only see two heading to the circle.. I'll move to it wither i'm in the group or not.

 

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 12:59 PM PST

I do think this needs further discussion. I vote for a raid meeting on gamevox. Battling it out on forums might not be the best way.

 

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Soren
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 01:17 PM PST
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Guys, we aren't battling anything out over the forms, it's a discussion, and a fairly civil one with differing opinions, that we're going to keep civil. I want us to post. I want us to generate discussion and thoughts. That's the only way a team based thing is going to work.

It's not meant to scare people away, or keep people from attending Friday raids. The post originated with the question why. While we need to significantly need to increase our dps as a whole, it doesn't mean we need to stop brining classes we are comfortable on.

We do however need to be aware of timers and how dps affects us. Does that mean we all need to run full glass cannon builds? No, but we need to be more aware of how we can better help our team. If you are playing a dps role you need to be bringing the dps. If our tank is fighting with someone else for aggro then we need to be aware of that and change builds accordingly.

All everyone here is suggestion is to stop, breathe, and re-evaluate. What everyone should be asking is "What can I do to improve my build and the team". Should I change gear? Can I eek out more DPS? Am I doing my job at being inside circles?

 

 

 

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Revlin
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Replied On: 12/07/2015 at 10:57 PM PST

I'd like to give some input on this discussion. First, I'll preface my thoughts by saying that GW2 has (historically) been about playing the way you want to play and it largely has been that way. However, raids is an entirely different story. Not only is max DPS needed, it's mandatory. Second, raids are designed to be challenging, end-game, group content. The devs have said that raids won't be for everyone. This means that there's specific roles players must fill in order to maximize their contribution to the team's success. Lastly, these are my opinions and what I feel would contribute to the success of the raid group. People can play however they like, as long as they are contributing in a way that will benefit the raid group as a whole.
 
 
Group composition
It's highly suggested, if not mandatory, to have a Chronomancer and Herald in your group. With the extra boon duration, a Herald can bring, the Chronomancer can get almost permanent uptime on quickness, which increases the damage of the raid. Condi engineers are often taken in groups because they can easily deal with break bars using their fire shoe thing (sorry don't play engineer). Aside from that, group composition doesn't matter too much as long as you're familiar with your class and are using traits/weapons/skills that will benefit the group.
 
Here are some suggestions on gear to maximize DPS:
 
DPS
First I'll start by saying DPS should have no toughness on their gear or from their traits, none. The job of the DPS is to DPS, so there's no point in having toughness, vitality, or healing power on your gear. This is a DPS loss because you would be taking these stats over DPS stats. For power DPS, you should be running all berserker gear and for condi DPS, you should be running Sinister (or at the very least Rampager). If you're DPS, you should have pretty darn close to the default 1000 toughness. If you're worried about surviving in such glass cannon gear, this is where raid mechanics come into play. If you stay out of the bad stuff, you don't take damage. :)

Tank
Aggro is determined by whoever has the most toughness. Since DPS should only have 1000 toughness (see above), the tank shouldn't need to go full toughness on all their gear. This means the tank can go Berserker, throwing in enough Knight's gear for them to feel comfortable. This greatly increases the tank's DPS and also gives the toughness needed to hold aggro.

Healer
Like the tank, the healer should also be mostly in berserker gear to contribute to damage when they can. Healing Power scales very poorly, so there's really no point in having it on all your gear. Healers should be running Magi or Zealot stats on enough pieces to get their healing power to where they feel comfortable, and then berserker for the rest. This allows the healer to contribute to DPS when they don't need to heal. Some people might argue that Cleric's is what a healer should use and I disagree. Cleric's gives toughness and the only person who should have toughness is the tank. So unless the tank is also the healer (in which case they should probably be running Nomand's gear), there's no reason to have Cleric's.
 
Let me know what you guys think, if you agree/disagree. The point of this thread is to have open discussion about strategy, so I'd like to see what other people think about this.

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Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 02:21 AM PST
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Before I type anything else, I have one question that I need answered:

  • Is there anything that you get from raiding, that you can not get from any other type of content in the game?

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 04:17 AM PST

Rev I agree with most of your points only thing I differ on is the toughness idea. I don't think you need to be higher than the default toughness what so ever.

Other thoughts:

I get the feeling people are starting to get upset with the GSCH progression and are starting to point fingers at each other. Now in most of the groups I've ran with in GSCH it hasn't been dps problems causing any of the failures however Soren stated she was hitting the enrage in her group. I wasn't in that group last week.

A couple of point.. some have mentioned the idea that you need to no play this class if you can be good at it. Thats frustrating to hear in any regard. 

Some others have stated that if your not glass cannon your doing it wrong, thats also ridiculous as plenty of people can be a hybrid of zerker stats and still pull more dps than a full zerker. 

I think the problem i get from this thread is a feeling that "my stuff doesn't stink" from some of the players here when as said before it's not one person screwing up. I also get the feeling that it's about to be a witch hunt for people not running "this stats selection". 

What I do get out of this thread are positive feelings about how can we help our current members. I just read lots of if you can't do this well then it isn't for you. Is that really want you want to say? 

I know raiding isn't for everyone but 5-10 minutes from someone can change a person play style like crazy and help you make a friend for life. It's also kind of what we stand for in this guild. 

Maybe it's just me but I don't get that fuzzy feeling from this. 

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Archy
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 04:41 AM PST

Raid Rewards are, unique equipment skins and miniatures, precursors for legendary armor, guild hall decorations.

Gas, I used to run it with D/W in a full tanky build with every defensvie cooldown possible, but I've removed all that now for more DPS. I don't have an ascended warhorn, so I go with my zerker staff for DPS.  You're right about Elemental Shielding though. I didn't think I had enough auras in the build to warrant it.  But I'll now run with a more aura focused build I think.

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Archy
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 04:56 AM PST

Problem is, how do you know who needs to improve their DPS, for instance, and how can you help?

It's easy enough to spot people not avoiding stuff as well as they can and suggestions can be made.
You can feel whether or not you have a competent healer.
Tanking issues are very in your face too.....  so all of these things can be addressed easily.

But for DPS?  You kind of have to ask each class individually if they're running, say, one of the top two dps builds for their class, making sure they have correct key traits slotted, often making it sound like you think they don't know what they're doing.

For the second and subsequent bosses, we'll likely be forcing people to run specific builds, gear, runes, traits, the works otherwise it just won't get done.  So we're going to have to face that at some stage.  We just have a fair bit of leeway afforded to us on the first boss, hence being able to run suboptimal builds.

 

I'm getting that icky feeling too Esca :(

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Gaspara112
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 06:35 AM PST
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Esca,

Some others have stated that if your not glass cannon your doing it wrong, thats also ridiculous as plenty of people can be a hybrid of zerker stats and still pull more dps than a full zerker. 

This comment is confusing and misleading to me. The only possible way a player could out DPS themselves in a hybrid stat set (anything with tou,vit, heal) vs a full damage stat set (zerk, ramp, sinis) is if they are dying. Unlike in normal PvE if players in full damage sets are dying it is because someone is failing their job at the mechanics. It is mathematically impossible for me to do more damage with a hybrid set compared to a full damage set if I stay alive the entire fight.

I think the problem i get from this thread is a feeling that "my stuff doesn't stink" from some of the players here when as said before it's not one person screwing up. I also get the feeling that it's about to be a witch hunt for people not running "this stats selection". 

I'm not trying to be hard on people but ArenaNet chose to make fight pacing all but require at least exotic full dps stat gear from the dps in the raid team. As someone who has beaten VG multiple times(and spent over 30 hours fighting him with different groups) I can say even with full meta builds, food/maint and gear (though some less skilled players in a couple clears) that there is not a lot of time to spare. Gorseval (the second boss) is even worse and has an even higher dps threshold for success and sadly there is no other option.

 

Since I am in GSCH for the fun of playing with friendly people, not to be the best. I am happy going in there every week and doing our best as a guild to beat the content without forcing people to invest in full damage gear, look deeply at traits & skills, and use expensive food/maint but I can tell you it will take a perfect run to beat VG and Gorseval will be impossible.

I'm not trying to belittle or blame anyone, its just a sad truth that the "berserker meta" is even more alive in raiding than it ever was in dungeons as it is now mandatory. Maybe wing 2 will do more to focus on mechanics and less on dps to balance that out but we will have to wait and see.

 

 

Archy,

I like that new build Auras were the real buff given to Eles with Tempest and using them to their potential is huge. As far as staying staff I'm not sure how its DPS compares to Dagger if you are always in melee range(being the tank) but that might be something worth looking into.

 



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 06:36:03

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Soren
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 06:48 AM PST
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"I get the feeling people are starting to get upset with the GSCH progression and are starting to point fingers at each other. Now in most of the groups I've ran with in GSCH it hasn't been dps problems causing any of the failures however Soren stated she was hitting the enrage in her group. I wasn't in that group last week."

@Jace - My group was having issues with the first dps check -> not at the first split by the 6 min mark though we did make up tonnes of time during the split phase. I was told Quaggan's was consistently getting to the final phase and then hitting the enrage which lead me to believe they are struggling with the mechanics (probs the not fast enough of the breakbar in the last phase) and not dealing enough dps to get them through. I'm just going by what people are telling me and from what I observed watching a few of the posted videos and then comparing to how my Sat group runs and some of the pug groups I've run with.

"A couple of point.. some have mentioned the idea that you need to no play this class if you can be good at it. Thats frustrating to hear in any regard. 

Some others have stated that if your not glass cannon your doing it wrong, thats also ridiculous as plenty of people can be a hybrid of zerker stats and still pull more dps than a full zerker."

You don't have to be glass cannon (full zerk), but it does help in the grand scheme of things if people run dps focused gear. Hybrids work well if they are set up proper -> my necro is a hybrid and still cranks out silly condi dmg with respectable dps.

"I think the problem i get from this thread is a feeling that "my stuff doesn't stink" from some of the players here when as said before it's not one person screwing up. I also get the feeling that it's about to be a witch hunt for people not running "this stats selection".

This is NOT going to delve into a witch hunt so long as I'm running the event so there is no point in scaring people off with words like that. It's not constructive at all to helping teams and has no place here. Again this thread is to just spitball ideas and foster good communication. Everyone needs to remember that our raiders are a mix of experience and they are using that experience to drive there thoughts and opinions.

"Problem is, how do you know who needs to improve their DPS, for instance, and how can you help?

But for DPS?  You kind of have to ask each class individually if they're running, say, one of the top two dps builds for their class, making sure they have correct key traits slotted, often making it sound like you think they don't know what they're doing."

I think this is the crux of the matter and where we need people to understand that we aren't out to paint them as the bad guy. Archy is right, we don't know how we can help team mates improve DPS if we don't know what they are running and oft times it might come off as if we sound like we are trying to play no it all. That's not what is happening. The intent is to simply make the team stronger and perhaps by swapping 1 trait or 1 utility you can get your team past whatever wall they are stuck at.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 07:32:06

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Yulan
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 08:49 AM PST

Before I type anything else, I have one question that I need answered:

  • Is there anything that you get from raiding, that you can not get from any other type of content in the game?

@Sekkerhund Legendary Armor seems to be exclusive to raiding... But honestly? This right here is exactly what people who like to raid are looking for: theorycrafting, discussing, and working together to beat a difficult challenge. It's something that a lot of people asked for in GW2 and has finally been delivered. Of course, this kind of challenge comes with some downsides and not matching the whole GW2 playerbase. That raids "are not meant for everyone" is ANET words, not ours.

@Thread I believe we're all vastly in the same page and can begin discussing group compositions and who is able to fill what role. From my experience, a Druid healer and a Chronomancer tanker can bring some perks to the party that are unique to them (damage bonuses and alacrity, respectively) and are in my opinion highly valuable, even if not absolutely essential. I know some other classes are great tankers and healers, but I suggest we start from top to bottom, so we can rule out that the problem isn't our composition, but our performance. That means we should also bring a PS Warrior and a couple Power Heralds in order to sustain our damage without much effort. For condies, Engineers are highly valuable for all their additional support and CC in order to keep the Seekers under control, which is one of the main difficulties of this first fight, so I suggest at least 2 of them. Reinforcing: this fight can absolutely be done with other compositions, but since this one is "easy mode", it would be valid to start with it and evaluate our performance both individual and as a group.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 08:49:57



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 08:50:57

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 10:11 AM PST

@Gaspara  - DPS Hybrid Topic: Thats exactly what I mean, some hybrid dps are able to out perform full zerker because of play style begin either better/faster or just doing the mechanics better. Not so much that the Hybrid armor will sat wize generate more. However I can in valk/zerker have a good moderation of vit that will allow me to make a mistake more than someone in zerk that has less health. Does that mean much.. maybe, when I was condi on the condi split it mattered, there are several other times when it mattered as well but was it a game changer no. Could it be a game changer?, I think it can as it allows a variable to be in play that wasn't allowed before. You can't DPS if your dead.

@Soren - Witch Hunt Topic: I'm not trying to scare or deter anyone from the raids with words like witch hunt. That's the feeling I get when I read these messages and the ideas from some of these others. My original idea of wanting to look at what people are bringing is honestly along those same lines however the witch hunt feeling is from lines like this "If you don't agree with the way raids work or feel there's nothing you can do to improve your performance, don't forget that this content, by design, is not meant for anyone." This is interpreted by me as "well if you can't do it then I guess it's not for you so bye have a good day". That to me is read as "well we won't try to help you get there so go back to farming". Maybe I took that wrong who knows but the tone that I read from this is more of a negative note not so much from you but from others. I've mentioned that in my original post that it seems more like "who is screwing up" and not " where can we as a team improve". While some will argue that it's the same thing it's really not when it's mishandled.

I wouldn't have mentioned it if that wasn't what I thought this was becoming wholeheartedly. I get you.. dps need to bring the DPS, so don't stack healing or toughness. But lets not become Nazi over anything other than Zerk/Sinister because it's silly. I know Soren you haven't been but It's the overall tone I get. 

On that same note if that's what we want from this Raid group. Then define it. If you want a spec and a class and a gear type define it and lets move on. As of right now the raid is mostly a casual element as we don't have dedicated people to each team and each team changes dramatically weekly so it's almost impossible to get a rhythm. Yet we seem to get upset when someone wants to come in to "HELP OUT" the group because they are low on members and group gets upset that they are not the Meta build or gear choice. That's just silly.

@Soren - Glass Cannon Topic: I'm happy to hear you yet again say this however a good bit of the others aren't portraying that idea while I only see a few who are.

Tone - Tone take this as a tone not trying to be agitated by the lack of organization but as a tone of trying to positive and constructive with a tad bit of realization. That is the tone I'm trying to achieve. I don't want anyone offended as they think I'm trying to call them out or say they are doing something wrong. I'm just using examples. This is why I perfer these communications over voice as tone and inflections are easier to provide.

@Thread - DPS Stats: I will change up my gear yet again if some one will be willing to help farm the mats for me. This is a positive approach. I'll also help anyone else change their gear stats over if they want help doing that to play the role you'd like. I'm a Grand Weapon\Armorsmith so what items I can make for you I'll help with. I honestly think we should start by dedicating the groups out and allowing each group leader to take the ownership of that group and raid lead it. That means getting with each member talking them over and asking if they need help or advice on how to move forward together. As a mid tier raiding group that should be how it's work so that you can improve and those that don't want to work on items can be asked to step out for someone that will fill the role of the group. This as it is right now is a casual, yes casual, group as the groups are defined and signed up but are drastically different due to missing people and then filling those slots with dps along the category of "power of condi". 

Example, we lose our PS war, and replace it with a MT DH. Those are both "power" DPS but we just lost a massive amount of might. 

For instance I'm going to just grab a group randomly: Lets take group 2. So lets say Archy is the leader of that group. He sees who is signed up for that raid and he talks with everyone over and gets a good understanding of how they want to play. He notices two want to play warriors but they already have a herald and a PS so another PS is kind of not needed. Archy would then talk with both wars to see if they can bring someone else or change some items up. 

Maybe thats going on behind the scenes but some of our comps don't show it. However all of this is kind of mute when we have people dying with one person in a circle and people getting teleported.

We still have a long way to go with both groups, helping DPS get in DPS based gear, and getting players to be on time and dedicated should be phase 1 to getting this raid kill. Then working as a group to get comfortable with their role is the last part, then the kill.

@Thread - TL:DR: How can we expect to be specific (gear stats, class choices, talent builds) when we aren't being specific and bringing in anyone that can fill the slot? It's like begging for a sandwich and complaining that it has mustard on it. 

  • Lets get the group leaders to inspect their raid
    • Check for:
      • Buff food and maintenance. Ask if they know what they need and help them figure it out.
      • Ask if they know the fights or have questions about mechanics
        • Prioritize moments for them, IE: Breakbar time, is breakbar time and not push back seekers or scratch that itch on your neck.
      • Ask what build people are using and see how that fits in your raid, does it make sense for your group as a whole?
      • Ask what gear people have and see if you can help them change it if it's not what is needed

Is this alot: yes, should it be done 15 mins before the pull probably not. You want to be mid tier raiders, we need to put the time in (raiders) and so do the leaders of each group so they can see what their team looks like and change what is needed to be changed.  We can't just rely on the leaders to spoon feed us but we need guidance from them on what they want to see. That is what I learned raid leading was from my time in wow. Not calling out the painfully obvious ground effect mechanics. 


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Gaspara112
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 11:58 AM PST
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Jace,

The problem is that 9/10 the mistakes you make in the raid that extra 1k hp won't save you and you gave up ~3% of your maximum possible damage to get it.

This is especially true in the VG fight. As a Melee DPS(during 30 hours of fighting the boss) I have been downed twice in situations where I made a minor mistake and 1k life might have kept me up.

For better or worse the way GW2s damage system(that allows parties to get everyone to ~100% crit chance) calculates damage a lot of things get multiplied resulting in just slightly lowering a single number having a much more noticeable effect.

I was never a big zerker supporter before HoT and I still feel its the wrong choice for most classes in open world PvE but in raids it drastically increases a teams chance of success and without enough zerker users the content is unbeatable.

 

As far as the witch hunt if players are not using dps gear/traits/food/maint and are unwilling to change those things to increase their personal effectiveness within the team then there is not much we can do to help them. Getting better for the good of the group is something raiders have to take on themselves as there is a limit to what a single member can contribute. Anyone interested in being successful in raids should personally take responsibility for trying to improve themselves to the point they have nothing more they can improve on, this not an overnight thing but talking to knowledgeable players about your gear and build can cause dramatic gains right off the bat.

 

Once again I am not fingering anyone and not trying to discourage anyone. What I am trying to do is to encourage unsure and inexperienced people that want to raid and succeed to seek help from the raid leaders or other more experienced raiders to help improve their build and let them focus on gameplay improvements(where practice makes perfect).

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Revlin
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 12:18 PM PST

@Esca - I apologize if my post came off as negative, that was certainly not my intent. My post was more for "best case scenario". What raids come down to is doing enough DPS in a certain amount of time. Do I agree with this type of game design, no. I much prefer encounters dependant upon game mechanics over doing DPS, but sadly that's not the case here. The devs have made the decision that you must max DPS in order to defeat the boss in the given time. Personally, if they took the enrage timer away that would solve alot of issues people are bringing up about raids. Then it becomes more about handling the mechanics more so than a DPS race.

@Thread - I don't believe anyone should go out and change their stuff (gear, sigils/runes, etc) right now. I believe each 10-man group has been different the last few weeks, so changing stuff right now is kind of a waste, for the point Esca brought up. If you're condi this week, and power next week, that can get expensive to be switching all the time. I would say stick with what you have, wait until we have consistant groups week after week, and then make changes to your gear over time according to what the group needs in order to improve. I like the point that Esca brough up about each raid leader working with their raid on builds and stuff like that. The only problem is because we've not had consistant groups, that becomes more difficult.

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 12:38 PM PST

@Gaspara I don't feel that 5 pieces of valk gear over zerker will have much to change in terms of my overall dps for gain or for loss when we can't clear phase 1 100% of the time. If we are pushing the content and just barely failing on the boss, then sure I'll change to full zerker if we feel thats nessicary. Until then I'm not changing my stats because if we arn't getting there its not because Jace Xcelius has those five pieces of valk gear!!! lol it's just silly to think that. 

I think we need more specific ideas of what the group needs i'm supporting more defined roles and less casualness to this raid. You obviously want a mid tier group so we need hardcore standards and rules. But DONT cast out players because they have a different opinion we need the leaders to talk to them about what those leaders are wanting the classes to be and what role and gear to fill. Other than that it's just a big guessing game. 

Also TBH I really could care less how many hour someone has in this raid. Theses raids are technically easy (big shock!). You dps the boss, you do this mechanic and boom the boss dies. Where the problems are, is we have a group of people having to rely on each other to do that in a coordinated effort. This raiding is simple when you compare it to Mythic raids in WoW, and is by far the simplest raid fight I've seen in a long time. A lot fewer mechanics and very little variation in between. We are not losing these fights to a few people in valk gear we are lossing these fights to coordination and failure to maintain mechanics. This is what I've seen from the GSCH I'd attended not the group Soren had last week so I can't talk for everyone but the ones I've noticed were this way. If you want I can post more videos with clearly defined edits to state the case. PS. If you want to see complex fights I can show you a couple just pm me.

I can not and will not agree that someone running a few valk or someone running a few clerics in the raid party is enough to state that group is failing when we are not getting to the third phase consistently. In all my years of raid leading that is clearly a mechanics issue without question. It's up to the Raid Leaders to determine where the fault is and to resolve it internally. That's why record every attempt.

@Gaspara - "The problem is that 9/10 the mistakes you make in the raid that extra 1k hp won't save you and you gave up ~3% of your maximum possible damage to get it." With the above mentioned post I can't agree to this much as I think the above post describes why more. If not I can explain later.

@Gaspara  Min maxin -  Should we min max (dps gear/traits/food/maint). Yes I agree to this zerker this and zerker that. I think your missing my point when I say that zerk isn't why we are not completing it. I'm looking at the fights from the ones I was in and Gaspara you weren't in mine. But in the ones I was in with quaggins we had issues on the fields and issues on the teleports thats not going to get fixed with Zerker. Do I think it's absolutely necessary, lol nope because when we are on point we are meeting the dps requirements. Maybe the second boss will be harder but zerk stats aren't holding the groups i've seen back it's mostly a comfort thing and getting used to the mechanics and teams.

@Gaspara Quote "Once again I am not fingering anyone " lol giggles, sorry i had to 

@Gaspara \Thread : You stated "What I am trying to do is to encourage unsure and inexperienced people that want to raid and succeed to seek help from the raid leaders or other more experienced raiders to help improve their build and let them focus on gameplay improvements(where practice makes perfect)." I'll throw you a bone. If your a new player and you want to have a higher chance at performing your utmost best, and your DPS go full zerker. If you noticed that your dieing to alot of stuff because of mechanics and not knowing the fight, just practice more and ignore those that get frustrated with you.

 

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 12:46 PM PST

Rev I think is stealing my thoughts from my head and using them ins more understandable forms. So in that regard REv please get out of my head. :P

@ Rev - No not offended at all( I'm just trying to speak up for those that arn't talking). But seriously I agree with you. Your making the point I'm trying to say is that the DPS in all the groups I've WITNESSED havn't been due to DPS. Soren's maybe but I can't comment on that only they can. If people refuse to change to fit the raid groups needs, boot them thats what mid tier groups do. But the effort has to be made from that group leader, not Soren, not gaspara, the raid group leader leading that raid. If someone like Gaspara is a knowledgable player on that class and gets asked how to improve from another member FREAKIN AWESOME! I hope that Gaspara and help them learn something and improve. 

However until that raid leader says I need this and this is what your stats should be for my raid. Don't change a thing. I was picked up for the Quaggins one time and changed from condi to power and back to condi due to people leaving .... I'm sure as heck not changing my gear stats that many times but I'll do what ever I can to help the group.

Lets get a raid group formed. Lets get people that !!!***WILL***!!! say I'm here and will play unless my cat bites off my toe and I'm hospital bound. So we can get a good balanced group instead of this PUG groups that are not even good pugs because we are just filling slots with bodies and not what the group needs to launch.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 12:51:41

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Soren
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 01:05 PM PST
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Very good points made guys. I don think that the swapping groups every week is def an issue I would like to get sorted. More consistent groups will definitely help the learning curve as you won't have to be wondering what role you are filling each week.

@thread - I never meant to imply that you should all run out and grab new gear/traits/sigils, it was more of a what I noticed at the time and a food for thought kind of thing. I don't expect anyone to shell out week after week if we have to keep bouncing people between classes. Heck I'd be so poor I wouldn't know what gold was if we did that (heck I'm already dirt poor) :D

And yes! Ask if you don't know. I can't encourage that more. We have lots of resource pools in our group and loads of collective experience. No one should ever be afraid to ask "How can I make this build better." I mean we're all here for the same goals hopefully.

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Revlin
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 01:52 PM PST

@Esca - I agree that most of the failed attempts made over the past few weeks were due to mechanics not being followed, and less on DPS/gear. However, when you get the boss down to 40 - 50% health and he enrages because it's been 8 mins, that is a problem with DPS. Now, one might argue that again its not DPS but instead wasted time (running back after being teleported, stopping DPS to res someone, etc) and there is some merit to that. But at some point, DPS needs to improve or you'll hit a wall.

I would say once a group forms and it's a consistent group, come with whatever gear/stats you want until the groups finds its groove. When you get to the point of hitting the enrage timer on a consistent basis, then its time to start looking at improving people's DPS and I believe the raid leader (and perhaps the more experienced players in the group) should be looking for ways to improve this. It needs to be done in a constructive and genuine way. I'm not talking about min/max-ing to the nth degree. Some hardcore raid groups will do this. But every player, regardless of their skill/experience level, should be striving to become a better player.

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Gaspara112
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 01:55 PM PST
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Jace,

 

I was in no way stating that you were responsible for failure, I was discussing a difference of philosophy about gearing.

 

What I was stating albeit maybe not well why I have joined TeamZerker in regards to raids. A combination of seeing how much DPS is needed to beat the clock as well as how much time I have personally spent attempting and completing the content has given me the opinion that ArenaNet set the timers way too short for all but the very most skilled(which I know I'm not) to complete without accepting TeamZerker.

 

The fact of the matter is most of the mechanics are pretty all or nothing. Either you do it right and are fine or fail and the team might as well wipe. With that in mind and the fact that the main mechanics are on timers means increasing DPS minimizes the number of opportunities to fail the mechanics. For example 1 less green circle per phase is 1 less chance to not get 4 in it. The more raid members maximizing DPS the less times you have to deal with the mechanics.

 

I'm a big supporter of self motivated improvement in all things, not just raiding, especially team related things. I want to make myself better so that I can make my team better. Anyone looking to raid successfully should be asking themselves before, during, and after each raid what they can do to make themselves better at their job for the encounter. Sometimes knowing is easy but execution is hard(such as "I need to upgrade my exotic weapon to ascended") sometimes its more complex or you just plain won;t know ("I'm not sure my traits are optimized) in which case asking for help goes a long way showing everyone that you want to improve for the good of the team.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 14:02:12

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Yulan
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 02:51 PM PST

Regarding "full DPS gear or not": Like I said before, I see no point in learning how to play in a mix of Berserker and Valkyrie (or whatever) only to realize it isn't enough to beat the timer. This may not be an issue with Vale Guardian itself, but keep in mind he's the very first boss of the raid. In Gorseval the timer is much more restrict, with the vast majority of groups wiping at 5%-10% only because they lack DPS. I believe that if you want to play a DPS role in a raid, you need to fully commit to it, and the raid itself is designed in that way: in VG, if the tank does his job in positioning the boss and the circle group handles it right, there's no mechanic AT ALL that damages the DPS group standing behind the boss at melee, apart from Seekers that need to be CC'ed (and that doesn't depend on attributes at all). So my point is, if we handle the raid mechanics right (which is what we should aim for), the DPS team doesn't need to have any defensive attributes to do its job and any non-offensive attribute is a loss to the group that can't be compensated by anyone else.

Regarding the "witch-hunt": Escaflownae got from my post that "read as 'well we won't try to help you get there so go back to farming'", but in the same post I even highlighted that "We can always help you survive in full Berserker's, but we can't compensate your personal damage if you're using Soldier's". So I'll try to put my point in different words: if you go down, screw a circle timing, get teleported, face the boss to the wrong direction, didn't move in time, ANYTHING mechanic-related, we can and will help you to improve to exhaustion. But if you do all these mechanics perfectly but isn't geared to deal the required amount of DPS, there's nothing we can do, because we can't compensate your lack of DPS by ourselves. This isn't about acquiring the right gear (we all can and will help you with that), it's about bringing the right gear to the fight.

To the overall topic:

Guys, this is a raid group that is commited to help each other so we can all achieve the victory together. That means identifying and ruling out problems is part of  the process, but nobody comes here with the objective to offend people or make personal injuries. If a finger is pointed, it will be in the direction of a problem we need to solve as a group, not of a person that we want to offend or see injured. What I mean when I say "this content isn't meant for everyone" is that there's no problem at all in disliking the way things work or realizing you don't have the time/patience to work your skills in order to beat it, it isn't mandatory and is supposed to be hard and unforgiving by nature. I personally hate the timer mechanic as well, as the strict compositions imposed by it; I believe it's lazy and old-fashioned. But I want to beat this content with Gaiscioch more than any other guild/pug I've already beaten it with.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 14:54:09

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JayRF
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Something we also need to keep focus on is that we need to have people gain the experience in the raid to beat it and then pass that along to the others wanting to do so. We all who have signed up for the raid are in some way interestedin beating this challenge and we need to help each other accomplish it. I know i havn't been there as much as i wish i would but that is in part of the timetzone issue. I love to raid with you guys even if we barely hit phase 3 each try, but geting up at 3 am to do so is a bit taxing over time. I will do my best however to attend. But once we have a team that has figureg out how to beat it, that knowledge needs to be passed one to the next group or two so that we get more and more people experienced enough to do it and pass it along to more and more people wich will make the switching out of people less of a problem as it is now. 

 

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 04:13 PM PST

@Rev - Yep I agree.. AGAIN you are not allowed to steal my thoughts anymore!

@Gaspara - "I was in no way stating that you were responsible for failure" I at no time thought you were I was just using myself as an example.

@Yulan - "Regarding "full DPS gear or not"" Yeah no dps should have toughness, I argue the valks because i'm not changing until we know what we are pulling and get more clarity to the classes and roles assigned.

@Yulan - "Regarding the "witch-hunt""   Yeah I get ya if we don't have the boss at a certain point by a certain point then it's going to be a dps problem later. Why worry about that now when: we don't have the same people, we don't have defined roles other than "today i'm doing condi", and we have issues completing starting mechanics. I think it's kind of putting the cart before the horse. DPS honestly will be a 15 min fix outside of raid.. it's a quick check.. do you have the right stats? No ok then lets go change it. Are you in full exotics, well even anet says you will need ascended to completed this challenge >.<

@Gaspara\Yulan -  Thank you for being competent and objective opposite opinions on this topic. I don't feel hurt or attacked at all on this thread I'm just bringing in another idea or point of view from a side that's not really heard here. If you look at the people that showed up on the first day of this and you see who are left you can see where some of those people got either scared or frustrate i'm simply trying to bring in those potential views as well. 

@Thread - this is the last I'm going to try to explain this view point as I think many people are getting caught up on it and don't understand. DPS, yes it needs to be as high as you can get it so you might want to focus on doing what ever you can to optimize it, thats what a raider should do. However with the issues i've scene and the lack of organized team management thus far there is no reason to get very specific at this point until team leads say for example; "Jace, I need you to play this role for us please maximize it as best you can". Because when it comes to it I don't see anyone falling on their swords to help someone else change their armor stats and it's expensive to expect someone to do that and then possibly ask them to change it again if it's not solidified really sucks. Example 2: We ask bella to go condi so she upgrades all her gear to sinister. Then someone decides oh well we need a druid heals, bella go druid. That sucks. You can't expect that to work from week to week. That was my point in the original thread before the raids start when I was asking what comps we were making.

@Thread 2 - I'm going to bow out of the rest of this discussion because we keep getting caught up on something that I really don't think matters (DPS) until we get the logistics sorted (IE focus on these items first, then dps after that). DPS will be easy to fix the logisitcs IE, group comp, gear priotization (asc over exotic), attendence, and roles will need to be addressed first. 

No one here has offended me. I'd just like to point that out. This is a discussion pure and simple with opposing view points, some more prominent than others.

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Revlin
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 05:11 PM PST

@Yulan & Gaspara - Totally agree with your points when it comes to gear.
 
@Jay - Couldn't agree more. Once one group beats VG, the knowledge should definitely be shared with others.
 
@Esca - I agree with your points as well. Asking someone to constantly re-do their gear because we need them to play different roles, is a crappy thing to do. I don't believe this is currently going on during raid nights, but I could be wrong. Now if a group needs condi and someone volunteers to jump on another toon (that they also enjoy playing and are geared for that role), I don't see the problem. Looking at it a different way, if someone has 2 sets of gear, one power and one condi, and they volunteer to fulfill either role, then that's totally cool. People should be playing the class and role they want to play, not the role the're being forced to play.

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Yulan
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Replied On: 12/08/2015 at 06:17 PM PST

Regarding being forced  to play a specific role or re-doing gear constantly: that's certainly not what any of us want, and the suggestion is exactly to determine a starting point for all of us. As such, if someone wants to be in a specific role he can check what kind of gear is expected ("oh, I shall craft a Berserker's set before signing-up for the DPS role") and people from the group, specially the leaders, can reliably expect the performance of the player regarding gear ("he filled the DPS role so I expect full Berserker's").

During one of our attempts we were trying hard to improve our DPS until we eventually discovered one of our DPS members (again, this isn't for pointing fingers, I don't even remember who it was) was running Soldier's (Power, Vitality, Toughness) gear, which certainly contributed to the problem. It wasn't his fault, he probably didn't even know how much of a DPS check the fight was... But this could be avoided with proper communication before the event, which is what we're doing now.

Additional note: IF you're up to and have the time to invest, I'd suggest (not force, never) to work on alternative characters/builds to fill different roles when needed. From my previous experience in other MMO, it's awful to miss a raid because we have everybody but a tank/healer/DPS ready to go, and having a wildcard for these times is always welcome. I currently main a Power DPS Herald, but I'm trying to have a finished Tempest healer and Chronomancer tanker for this week's run.



» Edited on: 2015-12-08 18:20:58

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Sekkerhund
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Legendary Armor seems to be exclusive to raiding...

Hm.  Thank you.

But honestly? This right here is exactly what people who like to raid are looking for: theorycrafting, discussing, and working together to beat a difficult challenge. It's something that a lot of people asked for in GW2 and has finally been delivered. Of course, this kind of challenge comes with some downsides and not matching the whole GW2 playerbase. That raids "are not meant for everyone" is ANET words, not ours.

That has nothing to do with my question.

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Yulan
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Replied On: 12/09/2015 at 12:32 AM PST

Glad to help ;)

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Mika
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I tried looking for raid build thread, but couldn't find it. I think it would be beneficial to have that kind of thread so people can view what kind of builds have been found useful in raids. That way players, who are gearing their characters, can build towards end game content. I own two accounts, one for EU and one for US megaserver. I have participated only couple times for taking down Vale Guardian with my EU account and based on those runs gear check is must and builds needs to be done carefully. Also knowing all the phases and what kind of tactics are also important. On those couple runs which I have done, I found that there will be need for someone who constantly calls out blue and green circles, because if those are missed either DPS will be reduced as people are teleported away (blue circles) and green ones can kill whole group.

 

Skills can be easily changed, gear not so much unless you spent a lot of time farming goodies. That is why it would be great to have build and gear thread. I have been building my US account revenant solely in mind of raids so I can enjoy good times with you guys. However as of now, it looks only raid event is happening on fridays at 6pm (gmt -8) which means to me 4am saturday so I'm hoping that there would either later or earlier runs. I understand majority of players are from US, but I'm sure there are players who lives on EU and would be willing to participate on raids. I know I am. I'm just in process getting my ascended trinkets and my ascended weapon sets. 

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Jace
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Replied On: 12/09/2015 at 04:50 AM PST

@Villaovi - that was kind of the point to this thread originally was to determine a good raid loadout and figureout a few missing items. 

@Thread -  Lets start to brainstorm a couple of good raid layouts with who we currently have listed on the groups.

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Mika
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Ah ok. Well what I have understood that guild in EU megaserver here is few builds which have been found useful against VG. Also loadout have been something like this:

1 - 2 Support
3 Condition DPS
3 - 4 DPS
1 Tank

I'm building my revenant based on that build which is shown below. These are just recommendations based on guild on which I play on EU megaserver and what I have read progress in our raid groups, they have been positive. 

 

Guardian:

Condition dps
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNArfRlsAhmhYRQwKIQQEHxDVNA2yBwuBvwjmTxWcGB-TRCFAB+r+jH7PEwpUoYlf+egAA4BA8r+GFOCBapEMAwBwu1tu7mu7u7uHf8xHf8xb3d3d3d3tUAwssC-e

Pure dps
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJARTnsABlCh9CBedCEEhl4BrKA0AqXy7v+3CMLF1imRA-TBSBABPcAFoU9HzUCe1+jyD801QmSMAuUB59EACAcA87v57v57v/+7zP/8zP/8+93z/98fLFgeCrA-e

Tank/DPS
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vVEQNAS5ensABlChddCGCBEEhl4BrKA8AqXY9gkwWQe/1/WgA-TxRBQBXZ/RpXGVGkIdDYS9nzoEEAXEgH8EACAgAczbmNbzgje0je0je0O6NP6NP6NLFwoStA-e


Engineer
:

Full Condition (Recommended: couple rabid/dire trinkets if survivability becomes issue) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0HeqybrxEQ (Before Vale Guardian fight change Tools II -> Tools I)


Condition tank for Gorseval (Remember have highest toughness in a group)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTPZ_Rfhk0


Revenant:

Full DPS
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAsXmnvN2gS6JvQRVlbosryPUYW5IKYs8ElFNFidMppNtDIANwegJshA-TlRBABUcKAua/R5He6DA4JAQp6PmpEkUACMGA-w


Warrior:

Full DPS & Full condition builds are explained on video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7wwxZ3Gv0w


Ranger:

Full Condition 
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNUQJAnfjEqQ7K2sCuqAVLGKEqvLy9Ao/gh9F4JodfgSW2YA-ThBmwA6V/BgSwgK/09AA2dCAUrHgQALWDA-e

Support druid
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Druid_-_Raid_Spirit_Support


Mesmer

DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0c55SlQ3kE


Elementalist:


Staff Elementalist for Gorseval:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XC9XilNAONA0RgFBAzN1ObztBBgCwBQ4SWCSBA-TxBBABYt/o8CgHAQe6AKTJSAXAgKV/5MlgBAOAGe4Aw6rv+6rveDP8wDP8wlCYgdWA-e

Dagger/Focus for Vale Guardian:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAodn0XC9XilNAONAcYiFBAzt1ObztBBgCwBQ4SeBqhA-TxRBABXt/o8CP9AkpE5hTAAAPAAKV/xMlgBAOAGuwBw6rv+6rveDP8wDP8wlCYgdWA-e



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 06:05:20

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Lakshmi
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EDIT: pulling this post and a few others about Engi DPS.  I've decided raiding is not for me so my input really doesn't matter here.  Good luck folks!



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:35:22

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Lakshmi
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@Archy - Do you have a build for the condi staff Tempest?  My staff ele is currently geared in full ascended Zerk very much like the Gorseval build Villaovi posted above. 

 



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 07:13:24

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Gaspara112
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Shmi one counter to Condi Engi not running the green circles is that most classes can't do any dps when not facing the boss (which is hard to do when running to the green circle).

The only ranged class that even comes close to the DPS of the melee classes is Staff Ele and they even have a portion of the damage reduced when out of melee range and have a couple of channeled abilities that make getting to the circles harder.

 

So while Condi engi definitely loses dps it loses less than almost all other classes. Also Air Blast, Big Old Bomb, and Healing Turret are great for using to deal with seekers as part of the green circle team.

 

Truth be told condi engi even loses a good portion of their melee dps against a moving target which is 1/2 of the fight anyway.

 

For killing the red during split phase they are absolutely king which the the other main thing they have going for them.

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EDIT: pulling my posts since I'm no longer raiding.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:37:09

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Gaspara112
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I am not saying this has to be your role but I am saying condi Engi is in my opinion the best at the green circle role.

 

I understand the complexity of the Engi DPS rotation. I have been practicing as I slowly work to acquire gear to fill that role. Green circle team needs to accept a dps loss as part of their job which is precisely why melee team needs to put every last thing they have(stats, traits, skills, food & maint) into doing DPS.

 

However the nice thing about condi is that your damage is over time. This means that after each green circle you can run up to the boss, drop fire bomb and use blowtorch (your main sources of damage at melee) and then everything else can basically be done at 600+ range as you move to position yourself to be ready for the next green circle.

 

Having a pair of Engis that take turns each green circle going BoB>Heal turret + active > air blast can do wonders for keeping the green circle team alive.

 

 

Raid dps tempest also have less mobility(no blink and only 10s swiftness/30secs), equal healing, roughly the same dps(but not condi so its a net dps loss for the team), and worse knockback(1 on 30 ec cd) compared to condi engi.

 



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 08:09:15

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Not sure why but I've been blasting water fields like a demon in this raid and the effect seems tiny.  Did they change the healing power coefficient with HoT?  Because engi water blasts (with no HP) seem much weaker these days.  Compare that to Tempest "Wash the Pain Away" which seems to do about 4x the healing.  

I don't have actual numbers, just an impression.  I'll need to test and combat log. 

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Gaspara112
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Not sure if blast heal changed but with the superior knockback of BoB and Air Blast on a shorter cd less healing is required when you have an engi compared to an ele.

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Yeah, I can see that.  If other folks could recognize the turret's water field tell and leap/blast too it would help a lot.  BoB for the water field as a second finisher makes the heal a touch less anemic.   I've been saving Flamebast to blast fire fields for might but that could be repurposed for heals too I guess.  Same for F5 Orbital Strike. (Only about 1200 per blast in my gear, ugh, so it'll take a lot of rotation to get decent heals.)

I've been using my air blast to knock seekers off the tank but I could save it for circle clearing instead.  I guess someone on the melee team will need to take over that duty.  ;)

 

|  less healing is required when you have an engi compared to an ele.

If teammates won't leap/blast fields, ele is still better in the circle IMO.  Wash the pain away is 6500 close AoE healing from a single skill, and ele has lots of other CC.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 08:33:05

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Currently I think the ideal(not mandatory) party composition for Vale Guardian is something like:

1 tank (temp/guard/dh/reaper all are self sufficient tanks with reasonable self dps)

1 ps berserker (high dps and perma max might stacks, high class specific dps party buffs(banners + empower allies))

2 herald dps (over poweredly providing top dps, high cc, high team support, and high self survival right now only weak to conditions which are )

1 extra melee dps (herald dps/berserker ps or dps/power reaper)

1 chrono perma quickness dps (perma/near perma team quickness and a boon strip for split)

Green circle party:

3 condi engi (top condi dps for split, top seeker cc, good team healing, acceptable dps in the green circles role)

1 druid (top healing, good cc, good mobility for green circles, very high class specific team dps buffs)

 

 

There is just so much less to think about mechanic wise at melee range (literally just blue portals and once in a blue moon a wandering seeker) that doing dps as a melee is much preferred and I have already made my case about engi's skill set above.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 09:12:56

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Gaspara112
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Seekers on the melee group are on the Heralds to knock away, during phases 3 and 5 the boss should be moving enough that the seeker won;t accumulate enough time on the group to matter.

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I don't think you get "good team healing" from engi and "DPS while running circles" at the same time.  One or the other -- especially since engi healing is really low unless you pump 8 or so key presses into it.  Even playing the piano there are only so many keys you can press in a few seconds.

Not arguing about sending them to the circles but I think you are overselling what they can do there a little bit.

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Sorry, by "acceptable dps while running circles" I meant while fulfilling that role not specifically while running to the circles and standing in them.

 

I updated the that post to clarify that.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 08:59:08

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Revlin
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Replied On: 12/09/2015 at 09:04 AM PST

@Gaspara & Lakshmi - I agree that getting might up there helps with DPS. This task should largely fall on the Herald. With Facet of Nature, outgoing boon duration is increased. Facet of Strength pulses out might, and Shared Empowerment adds a might stack for each Herald-applied boon. Combine all of these and it should be pretty easy for each person in the raid to have 25 might stacks.

This might also be a good time to talk about group placement within the Raid UI. Since boons are shared with other players in your "group" within the raid UI, there should be a Herald in each group. That way you get the most coverage with Might, Fury, and increased boon duration. I'm sure there are other instances where having certain people in the same "group" within the raid UI is important, but just wanted to mention this so it's on people's minds.

@Lakshmi - Healing power has always scaled poorly in GW2 and (most of the time) is not worth taking because healing skills are strong to begin with. About 6 months before HoT launch, I spent an ungodly amount of gold making a full Zealot's set for my Necromancer because I wanted to do a life-siphoning build. I discovered there was really no noticeable increase in healing or survivability so it was kind of a waste. A friend of mine who plays a Druid healer can heal for crazy amount and he is in full berserker gear with no healing power at all. It's my understanding that a Druid can get away with this because their healing skills are really powerful, yet an Elementalist would benefit more from having healing power on their gear. I could be wrong, but this is what I've heard.

As a melee DPS Herald, here's a strategy I've been using when it comes to staying out of the teleports. In most cases, the circles are easy to see. I've been in situations where a Chronomancer's wells make it difficult to see the circles, but it's not that big of a deal. My strategy is to try and not dodge out of them, but to move to the side and avoid the teleport altogether without stopping DPS. If the circles are placed in a way where doing this is difficult or I can't tell when the teleport will happen, I'll either use Sword-4 to block or as a last result dodge. Anytime you dodge, you're not DPSing. You might argue that blocking with Sword-4 isn't DPSing either, but you can resume DPS after the block, whereas with dodging you have to run back to the boss. This probably sounds more like min-maxing but any time you can maintain DPS, you're doing better. Just an idea.

I think someone mentioned in a previous post about staying closer to the boss. I think this is a good strategy that we should try out. It might be ideal for ranged to be within 600 of the boss. If it's true that the green circles spawn on someone, then it'll make that phase easier, not to mention easier on the healer as well.

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EDIT: pulling my posts since I'm no longer raiding.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:38:00

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@revlin I looked into it and it turns out I was remembering the Scrapper Recovery Matrix bug from BWE -- that made turret healing beast!

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Shmi I completely understand that running green circles is a DPS loss. It is a DPS loss for every class/build.

 

The difference is that Engis can quickly burst out a good amount of burning and bleed stacks, still do some condi damage at range (something condi ranger and condi guard really can't do in their ideal builds), have a low cd knockback, and a mid cd blast and knock back that can be used with their mid cd water field heal to add some healing.

 

If replace condi engi with condi guardian I am forced to have another class run green circles since condi guardian does 0 damage outside melee range, but since I have no othe ranged in my composition that means condi guardian won't fit.

 

If I replace condi engi with staff ele I am forced to get another condi (the best of which is engi who I am replacing so what is the point?)

 

Due to the way field pulses play into condi engis dps for most of the fight they will not out dps a herald/berserker/power reaper. However for the red split if the group makes the red guy stationary in those fields there is no condi that even comes close to them. So because in the ideal situation they are needed for their condi but will not out dps the melee and the fact they have good cc and self  healing they are perfect for green circle duty.

 

This is entirely based on my experience, theorycrafting and watching successful guilds who stream/record themselves. I could be wrong but it feels like the path of least resistance if you have the players who can play the needed classes effectively.

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EDIT: pulling my posts since I'm no longer raiding.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:38:33

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Condi's don't really have a "DPS burn".  If you're facing a DPS check, then you need high burst DPS (which condition damage doesn't have).

Best to let the condi's grab the circles, you really won't notice a DPS loss on the burn phase (although, yes they should still faceroll during the DPS-check phase, just to help out, not to mention a lot of Condi skills also have CC elements for break bar).

Honestly though, the break bar is the new check mechanism on facerolling your bursts.  You have to CC it gone, then burn your burst CDs.

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Gaspara112
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Yes Shmi, Rev Sword auto, Axe 4, and Shiro heal damage combine with over 100% crit with party buffs and 7(vs vuln which sword auto does)+7(with fury which we give ourselves perma)+10(2%/sword attack so always on in sword)+20(below 50%) + 2%/boon (with 4-5 self given perma boons) bonus damage adds up to be well beyond any other class. Oh and did I mention the 50% self uptime on quickness and 15 stacks of self and party perma might?

 

Yeah currently Heralds are off the charts in both self dps and party buffs and their only weakness is conditions which are not present in the raid currently.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:22:21

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EDIT: pulling my posts since I'm no longer raiding.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:38:16

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Far from a joke engi has the hardest job of all on Vale Guardian.

 

Trying to maximize dps with a complicated dps rotation while having minimal opportunities to actually get into your rotation because your constantly need to move to the green circles and stay alive from seekers through knockbacks and heals. Then during split you and two others are tasked with killing 1 guy in the time it takes the other 7 members to kill two.

 

If I was assigning classes/roles to a team I would put my 3 best technical players on engi. Followed by tank, then healer, then melee dps which takes MUCH MUCH less skill.

 

That is why I am trying to learn to play that role. Anyone who can follow a rotation can be nearly as good a Herald as I am. It takes MUCH more individual skill to play the engi role in Vale Gaurdian.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:38:39

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Yeah big part of why I've decided to drop raiding.  I picked wrong, class-wise.  I understand quite well what to do, but I'm not as fast as I was back when I started raiding 15 years ago and it's just not fun for me to have so many extra things to juggle in addition to that super complicated rotation.  The rotation alone, say in a dungeon, I can do fine.  With all the other responsibilities piled onto that one class... nope.  Time to move one and leave that job to folks better able to handle it.

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> you really won't notice a DPS loss on the burn phase

@Sekk - Actually you do. If you have a condi that is putting out 14k dmg per tick that is a heck of a lot of damage that disappears if they aren't there. Shimi I think engi's are quite valuable in the melee spot personally. That's where they fit in the group comp that I run with on Saturdays - crank out good condi and shore up the dps.

To be perfectly honest, I hate the meta. Actually I'd go so far as to say I loathe the meta and what it does to classes that are perfectly viable choices and how it alienates a player without any consideration for that players skill. Believe me when I say I feel the pain as a Necro (we are still so soo not wanted in pug anything). I've been in quite a few pugs where engi has dps'd. Honestly I've never pugged a raid where we had an engi (if we were lucky enough to find an engi) doing circles. 99.9% of the time it's been Ele's (Wash the pain), Rangers (LB knockback), Necro (Signet), Guard (Shield) that have been doing the circles. And yes, groups have won with a non meta strat.

Heck If I only brought classes to pug raids that were on the meta I'd never ever raid because I'm not "in the meta".

So while the meta is still the in thing it's also important to keep in mind it's not the be all and end all of everything (yes I'm well aware it is meta cause its generally the most efficient way to do things)



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 13:58:02

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Technically speaking I would still put you among the top of the list in the family.

 

But if its not fun its not fun.

 

But don't get totally discouraged, this is all based on what I perceive to be the ideal composition. There is nothing stating its the way it must be done. Also I have been wrong before and I will certainly be wrong again and there is absolutely no physical proof that I am right now. Perhaps once some of the top guilds fully try out all the gear sets and strategies something else completely different will prove more successful. Heck the next balance patch could totally blast Heralds out of the sky at which point you might see more Staff Eles taking their spots.

 

Definitely don't stop raiding based off of it because GSCH groups rarely take the path of least resistance anyway. Its just not our style. However in PUG groups presently that is likely the role you would be asked to play as a condi engi.



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 12:57:42

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Thanks Gaspara, I understand.   I have run lots and lots of raids in the past, and never felt any reluctance to join a pug.  But I doubt I can be even pug worthy on this class, if the meta really piles so much responsibility onto it.   That's why it seems pointless to keep investing my time into it.  

Anyway thanks for the heads up - now I know! :)



» Edited on: 2015-12-09 13:06:06

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@Thread Template builds are very welcome but party composition means a lot when you're building your character. For Revenants, for example, running Mallyx over Shiro is a big DPS increase when you have a Chronomancer able to provide 100%ish Quickness uptime for your group (the main reason people use Shiro when soloing). Mallyx also give you more team support with reliable boon stripping and permanent Chill for the Spirits in Gorseval. This is the build I've posted on Metabattle and been running for almost three weeks now, able to hit 12k-13k on auto attack while in Embrace the Darkness. The group I've been running with beats Vale Guardian consistently above the 2 min mark, that means we have more room for errors and not every single slip is a wipe because we will end up out of time.

My point is: I also despise some (most) aspects of the meta. But I believe running a meta group composition, or at least meta builds, is a very effective way to pin down where we're lacking as a group. If we can't do the content in meta builds, this means the problem is ourselves (either as a group, lacking communication and synergy, or personal performance), and acknowledging it makes it much easier to fix it. There's nothing wrong with unconventional groups and builds and they can work awesomely, but when a group like that isn't able to beat a content, it's much harder to realize what they're actually doing wrong. With this in mind, I suggest we take this approach for our "main" group and save our experimentations for when we start bringing other people for learning purposes, where it will be much harder to have a 100% control over group composition.

@Shmi, Engineers aren't supposed to be main healers, but their CCs, blasts and water fields are very useful for the lightning ("circle") team when seekers are around. A well-coordinated Healing Turret blast (with a PS warrior and a couple Revenants in the group you should definitely save your blast for water fields) can ignore a Seeker on top of the circle completely, and in my experience that's one of the main reasons groups wipe in VG (the second one is not getting to the circle in time at all). They can do this easily while still putting a lot of condi pressure in the boss since they have access to pretty much all conditions in the game, save Torment. Pugging a raid is perfectly possible, as long as everyone knows their job and is able to communicate (I've seen Discord used a lot for this). But the individual pressure is higher since it usually lacks the synergy of groups who run together for some time. I will never know what your edited posts were about, but I'd love to raid with you.



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 06:12:13

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Also, I will put it in a separate post for visibility: I strongly recommend every group to have a Chronomancer traited for Quickness + Alacrity output.

Quickness is an obvious improvement in DPS, which alleviates the timer pressure, and Alacrity means we will be able to use our skills more often. People usually put it in the "moar DPS" bag too, but keep in mind it also means we're able to use our CCs, heals, and group support skills more often. VG is fairly doable without a Chronomancer in the group, but we definitely can't go wrong with it!

This is the current meta build for DPS Chronomancers, but I've honestly seen they do even more for the group as a tank, since they can buff the melee group awesomely while tanking (which leaves a room for another dedicated DPS). I'm almost finishing mine, just need to increase a bit of the boon duration with runes, so I can probably bring it this Friday if we have someone to replace me in the DPS role so we can give this a shot.

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I think it's worth a shot Yulan. We'll probably start forming a bit earlier than usual to get some decent group comps going.

I do greatly agree that having a Chrono in the party is a godsend. The "Alacrity" they provide is off the charts + near perma Quickness (perma quickness if you have a guard running "Feel My Wrath") can't be beat.

But I believe running a meta group composition, or at least meta builds, is a very effective way to pin down where we're lacking as a group.

While I do despise the meta I will grudgingly agree that this is true to a point. If we have a bar and know that it works it would make it easier to figure out if its a mechanics issue or a build issue.

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Well i will do my best to attend the raid more regularly, but it's been a few very exicting weeks for me so real life got in the way in a very good way though :3

I will primarly be running my zerker herald wich i compared with the 2 build posted and will give the malyx one a shot. So far though it seems i have had it set up pretty good and only need one more weapon and 2 more trinkets to be fully ascended zerker. 

 

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14k per tick in GW2?  I'd love to know what class+build can put that out, because I'll dump my Confusion mesmer (that can actually crit w/condi) and use that for WvW.  4k, sure, I get about that.  14k?  Something is broken if that's even possible in this game.

The reason being, that condition damage is sustained damage in GW2.  Condi dmg can not crit, w/exception being Confusion, but that's because Confusion has it's own mechanics, it just operates similar to condition damage. 

During a DPS check, sustained from Condi isn't going to help a whole lot, you're going to need burst crit from direct damage skills.  The only burst condi that I am aware of, is my Mesmer build.  I think Engi had something similar, so it might be a toss-up, but still... even with Confusion popping crits on a Zerker target facerolling his keyboard, I might reach 7k a tick at best.

Necros are hardly worthless.  We now need hard CC to break the DPS reduction bar.  Necro shines here, because of the Fear tools that they have available.  Staff #5 takes a nice chunk out of a break bar.  Not to mention they are also the master of the Chill debuff.  (everyone just focused on Power Necros for so long, because condi damage is "weaker", by design)

Hope my typing makes sense, not had much sleep this week, so blah, but I wanted to throw this in, since Condi builds are kind of my thing.  Of course it's been mostly for WvW applications, but there's not a whole lot of difference in the operational math between PvE and WvW.  (sPVP is different, due to build customization limitations by design)

edit: caught a glaring typo, sorry if there are anymore too tired to catch them all lol



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 09:05:09

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@Sekkerhund, check this video from DnT. It shows the DPS you should expect from a condition character in a raid environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny5kJAkXfVQ

Here's an Engineer PoV from a not-so-optimal run, his burns reach 8k but keep in mind he has a lot of poison and bleed up as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG37HNgDvQQ

This is a DPS check, yes, but one that lasts long 7 minutes, so sustained damage is very worthy. It's more like a marathon than a sprint, you want people that can keep the damage flowing all the time instead of builds that burst all their damage in seconds and then sit on 50s cooldowns. These builds are more suited for fights that last 10-20 seconds, and that's why conditions were worthless in the meta of vanilla Dungeons. They shine in Raids and high level Fractals, though.



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 10:44:28

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Let me jump on the "I hate the meta" bandwagon as well. I believe people should be able to the profession/build that they enjoy playing and it should be viable in PVE. I was never a fan of the meta and always came up with my own weird/quirky builds. But after awhile, I started using metabattle as a place to find a base build, and then tweak it to fit my own personal style. There are several good anti "meta" videos on YouTube, especially from Nemesis, and I agree that the meta can lead to toxic gameplay. I'm actually not surprised that raids have the meta and max DPS be required, especially when you look at the guilds that ArenaNet had playtesting it. As I've said before, I think raids should be more about game mechanics, not max DPS and killing a boss in record time.

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Jace
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If people stop doing them, they will put them in that direction. Kind of the same idea of if you stop buying crappy games people will stop making crappy games.

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@Sekk it's not as uncommon as you think. PS Warr can get 7-10k tick with burning. I think the thing to note for condi's being that effective is that combo fields play a key role. I'm generating 7-9k tick with bleed and poison on my necro and if you play with chill/fire you can most definitely get above 10k if people are blasting for weakness/vulnerability - as a side note my build is based off of having 25 stacks of might so that helps too. I'm also taking into account that there is a ramp up time to get the condis up there. We definitely don't have the burst capability of other classes.

As an indicator, last Friday Rylssa and I were our Condi team and we were able to reliably get red down (or at least to the breakbar) in the same amount of time it took the rest of our crew to take out blue and green (and that was with a pure face melt of blue)

For those interested in combos and what each finishers do check out https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

@yulan - "This is a DPS check, yes, but one that lasts long 7 minutes, so sustained damage is very worthy" Couldn't agree more

@Esca - Which means it will never happen lol

 

 



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 11:47:19



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 11:49:35

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Replied On: 12/10/2015 at 11:48 AM PST

exactly.... /tears *filling up anet's bucket*

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Yulan -- that engi POV video was interesting, and answers many of the points in the posts I deleted.   He was definitely built for Support over DPS, and spent a LOT of his rotation doing support.  He solved the mobility issue for condi engi builds by swapping out pistols for rifle, thereby cutting his DPS by a further 1500/sec.

My posts were about >  Hey I'm full glass condi engy in the best DPS gear possible, except Mordrem Loop (coming soon).  I do 8k/tick BEFORE might.  Why am I  being asked to play support?

The other folks on the thread pointed out that I was going against the meta, which takes Engies primarily for green circle support.  

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@Lakshmi

Please note that your role and your gear are very different things. Like we mentioned here, Engineers do offer a lot of support for the circle group and it's one of their main attractives; but if you read the video's description you will realize that 1) he's still using full Viper's, the max DPS gear available for Engineers and 2) the video was uploaded 5 days after the raid was released, and since then a lot of additional strategies/compositions were formulated. In general, you will want every player fully commited (geared) for his specific role, and hybridize as little as possible, if at all. That doesn't mean there's no other way of doing things than the meta, just that we can use what the community has come up with to have an easier time in our next attempt, since we've been failing so far.

There is, in fact, a very good group composition where a condi Engineer is the tank, and the other 9 are full glass cannon DPS including the healer. It's the one DnT is using currently, I believe, and they're able to beat Vale Guardian with wooping 4 minutes left on timer.

@Escaflownae

Let's just realize that, while each of us don't like particular aspects of GW2 raids, there's a lot of people out there that are having a blast with them. There's nothing wrong with the content, it just isn't 100% what we particularly wanted them to be.

@Soren and Thread

Can you do a quick scan in the thread and add to the main post the builds posted so far, so we can start gathering them in an organized manner until we have a specific place for them? Otherwise this task will grow harder and harder as the thread expands, great talk going on in here :)



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 15:34:37

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You bet ya! I'll get them added in the main thread tonight and will set up a tab in the spread sheet for builds, build templates and theory craft if that works :)

Once I get the info there someone not me will have to make it pretty lol

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Replied On: 12/10/2015 at 08:28 PM PST

@Sekkerhund,  How about up to 22k ticks from a burn Ele? (can actually get up to 25k)

It looks the condi build I've been  running for a few weeks that destroys things condi related, and that Wooden Potatoes posted about .  The actual build is here, but note that it has my gear in it.  I only have cheapo carrion crap at the moment.

It's also why I've been saying Ele is top Condi DPS now since I haven't seen an engi do better... but I could be wrong.



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 23:43:44

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I think the thing that is hard is that there will be many different group compositions that will work to pull down the boss in the end, including several different ways to play a character. I play primarily engi, and I've seen engi mentioned in this thread as a being in a successful group as tank, as green circle support, and as melee. I played both green circle and melee during two fridays and we shaved off a lot of time because we got better at the mechanics and switched around the roles until we had a group that worked better. Soren and I managed to get the red boss down or almost down in the time that 7 people took down blue and then joined the tank to take down green. But I actually am only partially berserkers(trinkets, one pistol) and my ascended armor is a mix of non-meta things(2 soldiers, 2 rampagers, 2 carrion, rune of lich and several vital infusions) because I made it ages ago when I didn't care about any kind of dungeons/raids/etc. I am willing to look at changing it to more zerker's or condi, but I do like it how it is today because I can usually manage to keep myself alive and doing damage with it, even before we added more healing to help keep people up.

The main success of playing an engi, to me, is knowing the skills well (what the conditions are, damage is, hard ccs vs soft ccs) and being quick with switching in between the many options an engi has. I am constantly moving, targeting grenades/mortars/fire wall thingy/heals, switching from pack to pack to weapon. A good ele would do more damage with decent condi, but I wouldn't be as good with it because I don't know it as well and have time spent much less time playing that class, and forget about me ever playing a tank. There is a lot to be said for playing the class you are most familiar/experienced with, even if it doesn't fit someone's idea of a meta group.

P.S. I am favoring pistol/shield because that gets me 3 hard condis, including a push back with the shield that does great with the break bar.



» Edited on: 2015-12-10 22:25:27

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Yulan I understand your points perfectly.  It's not that I don't understand the need to commit or be flexible -- as I mentioned elsewhere I've been raiding in MMOs since 1999.   But, of every role in the VG raid, green circles is the role I feel least able to succeed at.  I honestly believe that a raid is far better off taking almost anyone other than me for that slot.  

I blew my gear budget on BIS engi gear, however, so I'm on the sidelines until I can figure out something else to bring.



» Edited on: 2015-12-11 10:10:48

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Soren, as long as you are compiling information the Breakbar article on the wiki got updated this week.  It has some really good, detailed information about different soft/hard CCs and specific skills now -- worth a fresh look.  :)    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar

 

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oooo Thanks so much for that Shmi!

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I'm kind of leaning more towards Shmi's point of view in this. While I really love hard gameplay there isn't anything hard about this content. It's mostly a effort in patience and organization. While I still disagree with some statments made in this thread I tend to agree with many as well. I'm at an impasse here. I think I might just sit back and work on my precursor while I chill out in Star citizen. 

The manner in which anet has gone about this tends to tell me they are rewarding the meta-society that i'm kind of against for more than one reason. I spent alot of money switching my gear to the spec it is now based on several requests and frankly I'm not doing it again for a group that still hasn't figured out what we want other than .. "Go Go Power ZERKERS!". Frankly I don't want to play that side scroller. I'm much more interesting in tanking and while there is tanking in gw2 it's not as complex as I'd like.

Raids are neat but they are bringing out a side of the community I feared would happen so for this aspect I think I'll go get some popcorn and some peanuts and watch the game from the stands. Not because I can't play in the game but because I'd rather not spend my time jumping thru pre-defined hurdles to a toon that someone else has set. I'd rather make my own toon or help make one with a group people. 

So far we have WvW and Raids in a situation where they are being looked at. I'll review them again after Anet has had a pass on them. However I will still be doing WvW as that has yet to fall into the "shape-puzzle game" that raids is quickly becoming.

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I know I've already said it many times, but I want to reinforce it once again - this is the question that Soren used to open this thread:

Why can't we, an organized guild group not beat Vale Guardian when a random group of pugs with no TS can do it with minutes to spare?

Like Soren herself has pointed, one of the reasons was a lack of DPS. I believe the easiest way to rule this problem out is to just build our DPS characters for the highest DPS possible, which will put all the liability in our performance alone, both personal and as a group (coordination, synergy, etc). I, too, am very against the idea of changing gears or builds all the time, and that's exactly why I'm suggesting this focus on DPS: not only because it's the meta, but also because it would ensure this is the only change we will ever made, instead of gradually switching gears, roles and builds while we realize at each consecutive fail that what we're trying isn't working.

My impression is that ANET itself wanted this content to be different from the rest of the content they've done so far. They're collecting "buckets of tears", affirming "raids aren't for everyone" and that "everyone will be expected to pitch in and execute at a high level to ensure success", and that can be translated to min & maxing. The play-how-you-want approach we've all been using (and loving) for three years now simply isn't fully compatible with this because in order to achieve this level of difficulty and pressure, they need to cut our possibilities, otherwise it will just be like dungeons and fractals that are very hard for some, very easy for others, but doable by all.

My personal experience in GW2 raiding (killed VG multiple times with different groups, Gorseval two times with a very coordinated guild as the only pug member, downed Sabetha to about 20%) is that if each of us do our job, DPS characters can easily survive as complete glass cannons, and that's coming from a guy that runs in full berserker + scholar runes (not only because of of the dreaded meta, but because I personally like "high risks high rewards" gameplay).

Maybe I'll regret saying this, but I'm honestly not saying this to bash anyone neither directed to someone in specific and I believe we're all comprehensive adults here: to be frank, I feel that bringing defensive/hybrid gear on a DPS character when the team is visibly lacking (and asking for) DPS is kinda selfish in a sense. I believe all of you have made many harder commitments for the guild before and some have certainly done more than myself to help us all, and that gearing and commiting to roles should be the least of our problems if we want to succeed in this content. I hope you receive this not as an offense but as an input to the discussion about how we can succeed together.

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Regarding Condi damage:

I don't believe that the combat logs are showing *only* your damage, I believe it's showing the cumulative damage of the condition stack.

For instance, the one with the Ele ticking 20-25k... if you look at the burn stacks, the boss has 40-45 stacks of burning.  That Ele is not stacking that much burn, just no way.  I didn't get a chance to see what other classes were in that group, but I am quite sure that is cumulative stack damage in the combat log, not individual.

I mean seriously, one shotting players with condi damage?

One way to check this, is using a target dummy.  There used to be some in Lion's Arch, so go test out there and if you get big numbers, take a video of it.  Actually, you can probably do it in sPVP on the Target Dummies there, although you can't duplicate custom builds in the Heart.

If I could find a good fight, I'd take my Mesmer out to WvW and grab some logs, since I mostly solo her.  Maybe my memory is faulty, but I just do not recall seeing high condi numbers and with her, I can stack 10-15 confusion real quick.  (although, as I said, Confusion is a bit different)

I might be wrong about the combat log, but I'd like to see individual output, rather than for a group.  People assume that the combat log shows "just their damage", but I'm inclined to believe that for condition, it shows the whole stack damage, regardless of what players are stacking it.



» Edited on: 2015-12-12 03:04:41

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Archy
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Replied On: 12/12/2015 at 03:01 AM PST

This is another video from Particular on Bloomy, where he set up his group to give him alacrity and quickness.

Fight starts at about 7min 35.
Guardian, Chrono, Revenant, and some symbol I don't know :p
~25 stacks of burning there, and his burning damage still seems to be ticking for the same amount.
Still not a solo parse though I know.  But I figured you might be better at dissecting it than me.

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So, I just happened to think of some code logic example to give, that supports my hypothesis.

Upon condition applications, the combat system logs the player name, the type of condition applied and how many stacks the skill applies + duration. 

However, once the stacks are applied, the system is unable to determine which player applied which stacks to target and just tracks the total number of stacks on the target.  Therefore, the total damage from total stacks is returned to the combat log of any player who applied that condition type.  (because it keeps track of player name, condition type and duration of stacks from that player's skills, but the system can not track the % of the total stack that belong to each player)

If that makes sense.  It's easy when I thought of it, but harder to put down in text.  It's also easy to test out on a test dummy, see what damage numbers are returned to one player, then have another player apply same conditions and see if it really is cumulative.

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Hm.  There's discrepancies in the damage shown versus stacks.  At first I was like, well crap, there goes my theory, but after repeated pausing and comparing damage returned versus stacks shown, I'm more certain now than ever, that it's taking other player's burn stacks into account as a cumulative total.

That said, I really want to test this now.  :\

edit:  I just noticed, that in the comments, pppito gives similar information to what I'm saying.

moar edit:  LOL this aggravating, because I'm wanting to stop playing and put GW2 on a backburner for a while, until Anet gets WvW revamp sorted out, but this burning issue (punny?) is trying to suck me back in.

I do happen to have an Elementalist that I can probably re-gear and test with, although not as a Tempest since she doesn't have her HP's for that yet.



» Edited on: 2015-12-12 03:21:51

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Soren
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Ah I see, I was just taking what is shown in the combat log at face value. Seems odd that it would show the total for everyone's damage and not just yours.

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Not really.  Since condition damage from multiple sources all stack into the same "slot", its going to be complicated to sort what player belongs to what stacks and then return that info back to the owning player.  Returning the total as cumulative is most likely the easiest, since it's what is being already reported to the target.

But, even though it makes sense to me, I'll test this when I get a chance to log on and find someone to help me out.  We already know that the combat log started out as very simple (actually, I don't recall GW2 launching with a combat log) and they've occasionally made upgrades, but ... well, it's still an inferior method of parsing, as compared to combat log parsers like we used for RIFT or WoW.

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Soren I don't think you are seeing other people's stacks -- it's really you.  I mathed this out a while back for the engi skills, so I simplified my spreadsheet graphs to illustrate how it works.

 

There are two big knobs on condition damage: damage per stack, and the number of stacks you can maintain for a particular condition.  The more you have of both, the better your damage.

Damage per stack 

This is greatly influenced by gear and raid buffs.  Basically:

First get your condition damage up via gear, traits, and consumables.  It varies a little by class, but 1750 is a common number for raiders.  Then add 25 stacks of Might for an additional 750 condition damage (Might is huge!).  This boosts your tooltip damage for the skill enormously (mileage varies by skill, of course).  25 stacks of Vulnerability on the target adds another 25% damage per tick over your tooltip damage.

The actual damage increase from the condition damage stat (and Might) varies by condition type.  For Burning (which stack-for-stack is by far the most damaging condition) it's (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131.5.  

Damage per stack of Burning:

  • Zero condi damage (in power gear, for example):  131.5 
  • 1750 condi damage (condi gear):   403
  • 2500 condi damage (condi gear with Might):  519
  • 2500 condi damage + Might + 25 stacks Vulnerability:  649

THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE of typical damage numbers, and the effects of might and vulnerability.  NOT THE MAX POSSIBLE!  Better gear, traits, runes, sigils and party buffs can drive damage per tick much higher.

It really adds up.  To see the per-stack math for other conditions, see Condition Damage.

 

Number of stacks

There are a several factors that affect the number of stacks you can maintain.  

The type of condition matters. Burning, Bleeding, Poison, Torment, and Confusion each stack up to 1500 per target, and the damage you do is simply your damage per stack * number of stacks you applied, once per second.  Chill and Fear do not stack!  Additional applications of chill and fear increase the duration, not stacks.

Skill use is a big factor.  If your class has a lot of different skills that apply damaging conditions, you want a rotation that lets you apply them on cooldown.  Using lots of skills really adds up the stacks.

Passive conditions from traits, sigils and runes.  These aren't as big a source of stacks as skills, but they contribute.

Alacrity and Condition Duration are the king makers for condition damage.  These allow you to reapply skills before the stacks from the last use have worn off, thereby driving your stacks higher and higher until  you complete your rotation, and them maintaining those stacks as long as you can keep your rotation up.

The above graph is a little simplistic, but it's a fair representation of a skill with a short condition field, like Fire Bomb.  You cast the skill, the stacks ramp up, peak, ramp down and then completely fall off before the skill is off cooldown again.  Alacrity reduces skill cooldown by 33%, so you can reapply your stats before the previous ones fall off.  It's awesome :D

+Condition duration comes from the Expertise stat, and +condition duration traits, runes, sigils and consumables.  It caps at 100% (i.e., double duration).   The exact effect on a given skill varies by how the skill applies the condition, but the net effect is a bit like Alacrity.   Above left I show that same Fire Bomb-esque skill from the left Alacrity chart with max condi duration.  On the right, that skill used on cooldown with +100% condi duration and Alacrity.  

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - I've shown you just one skill.  I have several other skills in my rotation (which all benefit from condi duration and alacrity) that more apply stacks of the same condition.  It really adds up.

For Maximum Whammy

Put it all together.  Great condi gear and consumbles for the best condi damage and duration you can.  Raid with max might and alacrity uptime.  Practice your rotation to use your hardest hitting condi skills on cooldown.   THAT'S how you get 25k burning ticks.

The Kryptonite of some conditions is a moving target.  This seems particularly true for Burning skills, many of which require the target to stand in a field to apply stacks.  

 

Hope this clears up the confusion!

~Shmi



» Edited on: 2015-12-14 13:06:31

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Oh nice. Thanks Shmi! That clears it up lots.

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Glad it helps, Soren.  There are few more wrinkles but that's the general picture.  Lots of classes get bonuses to the damage for specific weapons or conditions.   For example, Ele has a minor trait in Fire that does an additional 10% damage to burning foes.  So mileage can vary a little by class or build, too.

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Ok, so the math adds up between the dmg per stack x # of stacks.

My question, is whether or not a single elementalist can stack 40-45 stacks of burning AND... if he's the only player stacking burning in that video.

If the question is "no" to either of those questions, then I still contend that the Burn dmg reported in Combat Log is a cumulative report.  Why?  Because 40 stacks x 649 dpstack = 25k per tick.  Its clear that there's 40-ish stacks maintained on that boss, so which player(s) are doing burn damage?

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40 stacks?  Maybe... seems a little high but I don't have experience with condi Ele.  As I mentioned in the post preceeding yours, Sekk, class-specific bonuses can boost you past 649/stack.  Also, the 649 was just an example, and assumed 1750 condi damage (with consumables)... it can go higher.  Some traits and sigils (Bursting, for example) provide a flat bonus to condi damage.

Since your interest is specifically Elementalist+Burning I recommend this video for the breakdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKnSjhdl7U

He misses mentioning the tier 3 minor in Ele's Fire specialization, Burning Rage, which increases damage vs burning foes by a further 10%.  But overall a good summary of the mechanics and challenges of going for max Burning damage with Ele.



» Edited on: 2015-12-13 06:22:28

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The max number of burn stacks per player is 25, so some of the burning must come from someone else to get to 40 stacks.

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Actually, Shmi, the 649 was the max example that you gave:

Damage per stack of Burning:

  • Zero condi damage (in power gear, for example):  131.5 
  • 1750 condi damage (condi gear):   403
  • 2500 condi damage (condi gear with Might):  519
  • 2500 condi damage + Might + 25 stacks Vulnerability:  649

I understand that it's just an approximation, but assuming the guy in the video is running all of the gear, traits and rotations to do 25k, the math does add up to the 40-ish stacks on the NPC and what was being shown in his combat log.

So if what Frysta said is correct (and I seem to recall that it is), then that makes the totals we see in that video, rather interesting.

I still haven't had time to log in and test out my assumptions.  I tried a little Sat night, but my Ele is built w/ a WvW Power comp build, so her condi is ridiculously low.  I'm not really sure to make out what I saw, because I think I was the only one applying burning, and it was only a couple of stacks.

So I need to do a controlled test on a Test Dummy with someone else who can apply burning, or bleed, or really any condi dmg, other than confusion.  (will need to be 2+ people to test stacking and compare combat logs)

 

As I said, I could be really, REALLY wrong, but I'd like to see for myself.  I'm actually looking more at applications for WvW than Raiding, but it's something that got brought up and now has me really really curious.  ;)  (normally I hate theorycrafting)

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Where did you hear/see this Frysta?

 

I have never heard nor can find anything suggesting there is a per person cap on any condition. The only information I can find on burning is that like all damaging conditions the current cap is 1500 stacks on 1 thing.

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Sekk, you misread my posts.  Never, in any of my posts, did I say 649 was the max possible.  In fact, I've tried to make the point in each of my last two posts that there are other factors that can and do increase damage per tick above that example number.


Update: I did the "do you see damage from other players' stacks?" test, since it was super easy.   The answer:  NO, you only see your own damage.

My methodology: Two engis in a party in HoT, target the same dummy.  First player uses 1 condi skill and records the damage over time.  Repeat 10x for baseline.  Then both players uses the skill, doubling the stacks on the dummy.  First player's damage is unchanged in the combat log.  Repeat 10x for confirmation.

Super easy to repeat if you want to see it for yourself.

One thing I did not expect (and it was a big surprise!) -- I occasionally got crit damage on my conditions.   Specifically on Blowtorch, when the initial direct damage component crit, so did the burning ticks for the entire duration of the skill.  I don't have solid understanding of it yet and it'll take a while to tease apart since the various components of skill react to different traits, sigils and runes.  Who knows, it could even be a combat log bug.  But if crit is generally possible with condition damage then that's another way to get much higher per tick.



» Edited on: 2015-12-14 13:05:31

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@Shmi

I'm 99.9% sure that condition damage can't crit at all, but the skill that inflicts the condition can. It will show as a critical hit in the combat log, but the critical damage bonus is only applied to the Power portion of the damage calculation; For the condition portion of the damage, it doesn't matter if the source skill has crit or not.

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Sekkerhund
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  • GW2: Sekkerhund.3790
  • ESO: @Sekkerhund
Replied On: 12/17/2015 at 12:24 PM PST
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I believe the dd portion of a skill can crit, but not the condition.  Condition damage isn't supposed to crit, at least that's always been what I've read, including on the official wiki, but that might have changed at some point/people been wrong/whatever.  I know that Confusion can crit, I've seen the numbers enough to know that.

Thanks for testing that combat log out, Shmi.  I guess I was wrong.

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Curadh de na Iomproidh Oráiste
Gideon
Curadh de na Iomproidh Oráiste
Replied On: 12/18/2015 at 03:26 PM PST

Hey Soren, and everyone else, I'm going to have to take at least a few weeks off the raiding. I've got some personal issues that I'm having to deal with right now that really suck and are keeping me from being able to get on. Also the holidays are coming up and were going to be gone or with family the next couple Fridays.

If the personal stuff works out okay and everything I will look forward to continuing leading raids at that time.

Hope to see you guys soon. Have a happy holiday season and merry Christmas.

 

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Caomhnoir de na Fhiaigh
Robdalf
Caomhnoir de na Fhiaigh
  • GW2: Robdalf.2561
Replied On: 04/06/2016 at 06:27 PM PDT
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Hi Soren and fellow raiders. I'm going to be taking a GW2 hiatus. Need to take a break and avoid burn-out as well as get some RL stuff back on track. Catch you all later.

Rob

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Ban Fili de na Ulchabhan Corcra
Soren
Ban Fili de na Ulchabhan Corcra
  • GW2: Soren.9316
Replied On: 04/06/2016 at 08:27 PM PDT
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No prob Rob. Hope everything is going well for you :)

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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