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  • Replies: 40

A Brawl for All

Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Posted On: 12/10/2014 at 09:59 PM

Ive been trying to figure out how to approach pvp training project and I just cant get past this writers block.  here is some brain storming, plz throw in your own suggestions.

the goal: fast track players who aren't good at pvp.  get then to a level where they can at least defend themselves competently.

I often hear ppl commenting... oh Im just not good at pvp!  or we're in a big wvw fight and Im watching a thief stalk someone, I know whats coming and they make all the wrong moves.  all I can do is scream NO, GET OUT THE WAY! inside my head.

I brought this up with vanka and we ended up with a custom arena.  its expensive so we better start using it.

record duel and then critique them

we could just start up a 10v10 and have a running commentary in TS either from spectators or players, simple verbal feed back.

many have problems fighting thief, perhaps gets some veteran thief players to be sparring partners and explain what gives them the most difficulties.  learn how to defeat various thief builds.

defensive maneuvers and how not to get insta-gibbed.  see how long you can survive 1v2 or 1v3.

maybe we can get some interest by saturday?

 

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/11/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I'm interested, as one of those "not good at pvp" folks.  

But I need to start a step earlier.... which class is best for the PVP noob?  Is everyone full-out zerker DPS, or do team members perform specific roles?  

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/11/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I have taken a few brand new... like 114ap newbs into spvp and gotten them beyond the "walking meat" skill level.  starting with nothing, thats ez.  what comes next is a little fuzzy. 

as for best class?  there rly isnt one.  my first main was an ele, I got tired of losing to thief so I switched mains to thief.  as a thief i got tired of losing to engi so I switched again.  now ele's give me trouble so...  you see where this is going.

the class you pick should be about how you approach pvp.  Im an engi because I wanted a versatile class, even more so than ele.  you could say ele is an over all stronger class but it cant slide between roles as seamlessly as an engi.

but to actually give an answer for best beginner class, anything in the GWEN meta. (guardian, warrior, elementalist, necromancer)

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Laoch de na Iomproidh Corcra
JayRF
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  • GW2: Jay RF.8407
Replied On: 12/11/2014 at 09:59 PM PST
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Hey Eko and everyone,

I#d be very interested in learning my way around pvp. I would just need help with the new build system since that still confuses me greatly :D 

But yeah otherwise I hope we get some people and looking forward to learing :)

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/11/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Thanks Eko.   I WvW as an engi, so probably that would be the best place for me to start.  I think they are amazingly versatile.  And fun!  But I'm getting used to that disappointed sound in the commander's voice when I turn up as an engi.  ;)

As for the other classes -- are the traits unlocked automatically in spvp,  or do I need to go quest them before Saturday?  I have a fresh 80 guardian but very few traits so far.  (No gear either but that shouldn't matter, right?)

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/11/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

you will have all the traits except for the XIII's

some of the runes, sigils and amu's are not in the default and need to be purchased with gold and are then account unlocked.  theres no need to by them until you want them.

why is zerk so popular?  cause it does alot of dmg and theres other ways of defending that dont depend on stats, such as dodging.  so take random veteran player who can see all your attacks coming, why waste stats on toughness or vitality?

but all zerk is a niche build, sure its good at taking down 1 target who is unawares but it wont survive much pressure.  most players are happy with 1 kill and then dying or running away.

so how about 11am pst saturday?

 

 

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/12/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Thanks Eko.  11am sat works for me personally.  I assume that's Pacific?

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Caomhnoir de na Fhiaigh
AngusW
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  • GW2: Sumi Gau.2785
Replied On: 12/12/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Eko,   This sounds like fun.  I'm another "totally useless" PVP player.  Would love to learn to play at even a middle of the road level.  I also received a 5 day token for PVP arena from a BLC and had nothing to use it on.  If you can list the Arena name I would be more than happy to donate it to add more time for you.

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/12/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I got a thing between 10-12 so I might be delayed.

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/13/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Understood (re schedule).  Fog has some WvW this morning/noon, so I'll do that what you get your other stuff done. :)

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/13/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

the irl stuff is done and I see fog's event is still going strong.   I dont rly want to disrupt the wvw event, Ill be around the rest of the day.

name of the arena is... [GSCH] Gaischioch Practice Arena (learn More: Gaischioch.com)

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Banlaoch de na Iomproidh Dubh
Aoibheann
Banlaoch de na Iomproidh Dubh
Replied On: 12/14/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I have not tried out our custom PvP arena yet, and I would like to get in there with my Necro and play a little with friends. Plus I could really use the practice as well as some help tweaking my current minion build.

I used to love to play in PvP, but it was sidelined this summer for the heavy duty WvW that I love to run.

PM me sometime if you want a match or some help, I am not a noob, but not an expert player either.

Just out of curiosity, if we play in our private PvP arena, do we still progress on the PvP track or not?

Aoibheann Sidhe

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/14/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I think you still earn glory in custom arenas, but not 100% certain.  I remember a while back you didnt, then they released the courtyard and you could only find it in custom arenas.  I rly liked this map so I played it alot and remember earning glory.  anet doesnt include all the details when they update so it will need to be retested.

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/14/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I have a loose collection of ideas that ppl should know about pvp.  Maybe Ill call it... The Grand Philosophy!  until I come up with a better name  ^_^'  I hope to assemble these concepts into a coherent document later, this is just brainstorming, if you wanna contribute and help refine, plz do so.

step one: uncheck Melee Attack Assist.  What this option does is prevent your toon from walking through enemy toons.  Turning this feature off will let you reposition more easily.  If you leave it on, youre letting the enemy body block you.

step two: uncheck Autotargeting. this lets you use movement skills more freely.  if you use autotargeting, the game selects a target for you when you use a skill.   

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/14/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

a little story first, I was taking a course on robotics at the college.  the bulk of the material was moving a virtual robot arm on a computer model.  Coming from a long history of gaming, I was naturally quite good at this so the teacher asked me to help a fellow student who was struggling. 

the software moved the robot with keyboard buttons, 1 up, 2 down, 3 left, 4 right and so on.  it was very clunky to use and so of course many of the other students were having difficulty adapting.  The student I was asked to help had a different problem... he only had 2 fingers.  Imagine trying to play gw2 with only a thumb and pinky.  its not gonna happen. 

the point of the little story is, Im writing this assuming that the reader has full functionality of their hands and eyes.  If you don't, I am not meaning to exclude you and I will try to find a way for you to contribute. 

another example.. we have a player here on sor who has a brain tumor and it affected his motor skills and made his hands shake.  he couldn't pvp very well but he was quite happy to scout garri for long periods of time and we were happy to acknowledge his help. I had a guildy from BG who was going blind, sometimes she couldn't see the screen very well but she liked to gank JQ with us. 

maneuverability - the best way to move about the 3D world is mouse moving.  Hold both the left and right mouse buttons and steer by sliding the mouse left and right.  Why is this the best you ask?  cause youre faster and more agile.  this leaves your other hand free to use the keyboard.  if you are key turning you will be slow, have difficulty landing hits on a target and prolly having trouble in jumping puzzles.

get a gaming mouse - your mousing hand, sofar, doesn't have much to do.  a gaming mouse has extra buttons that you can assign key strokes.  best example is having a thumb button for dodging. but I play just fine with my old 2 button ball mouse!  you don't go running in your street shoes and slacks do you?  I mean you could, but its much more comfortable to get shorts and light weight flexible shoes right? 

don't double dodge - unless you rly have to.  when I see an enemy double dodge, I feel confident I can drop my heaviest rotation on them and it will all hit.  where are they gonna go?  I don't have to worry about catching them with a CC first, just go straight to the dmg.  I even call it in TS, hey this ele just double dodged, all focus the ele!



» Edited on: 2014-12-14 13:46:54

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/14/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

before you run in - think about what CDs you have rdy.  a good example is thief and the shadow step utility.  Shadow step is a teleport and stun break, if Im forced to use it during a fight, I will play defensively until the skill becomes ready again.  If shadow step is rdy, I can play risky and go deep into the enemy pack.  if I get into trouble I have my escape rdy.  another example is block, like with engi tool kit gear shield or ranger gs 4 counter attack, these can be used to run through AC fire and not take dmg.  when Im waiting for the door to break I will make sure gear shield is off CD, then when all the red circles fill up the path I know how to get through. 

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/16/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

plan a rotation - what we refer to as a rotation is a sequence of skills that are supposed to work well together.  simple example is engi tool kit magnet pull followed up with pry bar.  lately Ive been running slick shoes, the utility gives super speed and I can use that instead of magnet pull to land a pry bar hit.  An example with guardian is gs 4 symbol of wrath then gs3 leap of faith to combo aura of light (retaliation buff).  The CDs of these two skills dont line up perfectly but its pretty close worth waiting to redo the combo instead of just mashing each skill as it becomes available.

once you are thinking in rotations you are thinking in terms of tens of thousands of dmg where as before, thinking how to best land 1 hit at a time is 2k, 1k, 900, 500 and etc. 

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/16/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

One simple question about PVP:  HOW ON EARTH do you set your spec and gear?  I spend 20 minutes going over every pixel in the PVP menus, and never found it.  Did they change it so we fight in our PVE spec and gear?



» Edited on: 2014-12-16 11:38:22

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/16/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Hot joins were updated, you can longer make changes during a match.  either in the lobby or between matchs, look for a helmet icon top center of your screen.

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/17/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Its no ones job to keep you alive - for example we were attacking bay, the walls broke, ppl ran in and died.  Then while full dead, asked for a hard rez under AC fire.  If you die you are useless.  This seems so obvious that it doesnt need to be said.  Maybe I am the odd person who feels a responsibility to my team mates and am quite literally ashamed of becoming a burden.  I dont think I am the only one or else there would not be much interest in this thread, but I dont think many others think of it in these terms.  Everyone in GSCH is far too nice to call anyone dead weight and they deserve you best effort.

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Ban Caomhnoir de na Iomproidh Buí
BananaPancakes
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  • GW2: meanddubby.3471
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST
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I don't personally think you can teach someone how to pvp. You can teach them the maps, and about scoring, and they can practice their rotation. But truly, you can't teach them how to do it against other people who aren't going to just stand there and let them pew pew. Too many variables, too many ways to play each class. The way I play is not for everyone. It's suited to my play style and what I want. You can't teach that. At the end of the day, you have to think on your feet and know your class. You won't know how the enemy is built, you don't know their strengths and weaknesses, this you learn by doing. By fighting them. There isn't a tutorial on how to out think your enemy. I do agree that helping people new to pvp understand their class better is a good thing, like you said. Beyond that, in the fuzzy area - they have to just jump in and hope for the best.

I wish our arena was not stagnant. I do understand why our arena is the way it is. It's a great place to learn. But it would also be nice to have rounds, to be able to score. Then they could see the mechanics of a map, and actually fight other guildies, to learn to think on their feet, to get an idea of what it's really like before jumping into the queue. Yes you can teach that, in a sense, the way it's set up. But there is no end to the round. No capping of points, no fighting over the orb, no rush to kill the npcs, no death match, no learning how to not get smashed by the trebs, no lord rush, and no skyhammer. 

I don't want to sound like I'm being negative, I am in full support of your endeavor. I'm just voicing another point of view. I'll keep an eye out for anything scheduled. I might try another class and see what comes of it. 

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Ban Caomhnoir de na Iomproidh Buí
BananaPancakes
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  • GW2: meanddubby.3471
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST
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As far as glory (there isn't any in game anymore) And the reward track - you do not gain anything. Our arena does not have rounds, so there is no score, and no advancement of any kind.



» Edited on: 2014-12-18 00:16:42

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

One simple question about PVP:  HOW ON EARTH do you set your spec and gear?  I spend 20 minutes going over every pixel in the PVP menus, and never found it.  Did they change it so we fight in our PVE spec and gear?

I never got an answer to this the few times I asked in Guild chat (or earlier in this thread) but someone finally took pity on me in Heart of the Mists map chat and explained it.  So, solved!

For other noobs who couldn't figure it out, there's a "helmet" icon in the top center of your screen.   It's available in the PVP lobby, but not in a PVP map.  This lets you set your weapons, runes, sigils and traits.  You also set an amulet which apparently is a stand-in for all your gear stats.



» Edited on: 2014-12-18 05:07:54

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I mention the helmet thingy a few posts back...

You may be right banana and thats why I having a hard time getting started but Im gonna try anyway.

 

 



» Edited on: 2014-12-18 05:55:15

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Ban Caomhnoir de na Iomproidh Buí
BananaPancakes
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  • GW2: meanddubby.3471
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST
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Like I said, I applaud your effort to teach people the ins and outs. The basics are a good place to start. Let me know if you need any assistance, I'm all for letting people try to kill me :)

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Laoch de na Ulchabhan Dearg
Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Eko, sorry I missed your helmet explanation... I think I got confused by the hot join comment (since I really dont' understand that either :P)

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Bandraoi de na Aracos Corcra
Soren
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Replied On: 12/18/2014 at 09:59 PM PST
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Lakshimi there is a helmet right in the middle of your screen at the very top that will open up the pvp browser to let you set gear and ruins/sigils.

As for progression in the arena Fog would just have to set it to be 5v5 or 10v10 with open progression (I do believe this will open it to the public though). Unless this has changed in the recent spvp patch that's the only way to gain rewards/change maps/progress rounds through the custom arena.

If you meet yourself on the testing track, don't make eye contact. Lab boys tell me that'll wipe out time. Entirely.
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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Replied On: 12/24/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

lets get this moving again, maybe around 2pm after ranging rovers ends but before the evening groups start? 

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Ard Tiarna de na Iomproidh Bán
Jordyee
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Replied On: 12/24/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

Eko this is a wonderful idea too help people understand a little better about fighting people out in wvw.  This will also teach people how to fight particular classes in WvW if they run into them in a 1v1 situation.  Banana I disagree with everything you said about teaching someone to pvp.  If you get players practicing different rotations it will become muscle memory once the fighting starts, instead of just pressing every cooldown you have ( just wanted to put that out there ).  I'll bring my thief out and help as much as possible. There are so many things you can look for as a "veteran" WvW, PvPer.  If you have time you can target the opponent and look at what food ( only in wvw ) he or she is running which will tell you if they are a condi , toughness, power spec and you can adjust accordingly from there.

This is a great idea Eko. You should schedule it on the calendar unless its already on there and have it become a 1 or 2 hour recurring event every week.

 

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Electricmayhem
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Replied On: 12/24/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I was just getting into some serious PvP before I had to take a break due to some medical issues (mentioned above--I'm having a brain issue where it is really hard to get my left and right hands to coordinate). That said, I really liked PvP and would love to try to get back into it. I run a power necro and had very little problems with thiefs. Rangers, for some reason, just beat the heck out of me though.

One thing about PvP that I don't think that anyone's mentioned is it's a team effort. You have to know you're strengths/weaknesses as well of those of your teammates. It's tough when you get stuck on a team (I was mostly doing quick joins) where everyone is doing there own thing OR everyone just runs around in a zerg.

Anyway, I'd love to try to get back into it as much as I'm able and help with what I've learned as well.

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Electricmayhem
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Replied On: 12/24/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I think I have 10-15 custom arena tokens as well, if that would be a help.

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
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Replied On: 12/24/2014 at 09:59 PM PST

I was hoping youd join us jordyee, you will be most helpful.  also I cant figure the calender system or Im not permitted to start events.  im still working on the tuatha thing too, always so much to do.

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Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 01/03/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

So, had an interesting experience tonight.   When I sPVP as a guardian people are usually delighted to see me.  And I feel I can do a whole hellava lot to help the team win.   My first few matches tonight -- exactly that.  Fast, fun wins with me healing, clearing condis, and providing stability (great for spiking).

Then I got a group with an [EG] warrior.  He cussed me out for going to the same point as him (!).   What did I do wrong?  I mean, it's been really powerful in other teams to group up.  The map was Battle of Khylo.



» Edited on: 2015-01-03 20:23:07

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FinalFAB
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Replied On: 01/05/2015 at 09:59 PM PST
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If there is a training event I would try to make it would like to help if needed. I sPvP pretty often and love to get more people into the sparing ring. Plus I know most classes pretty well and can help with builds for sPvP and WvW.

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
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Replied On: 01/06/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

EG have a long tradition of inflated egos.  the thing about ppl with big heads is that they reject anyone who isnt actively agreeing with them.  this person decided you should be doing something and you werent so... rage!

If youre playing hotjoins it rly doesnt matter, 2 ppl capping home node is prolly too much.  2 ppl capping far node prolly needed for the enemy suddenly respawns.  again just hotjoin wisdom, not tourny games.

i will try to get some ppl for sat/sun again but rly no one ever shows up.  i think i finally figured out the gsch calender, maybe that would help.

 

 

 

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Lakshmi
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  • GW2: Lakshmi.5941
Replied On: 01/07/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

Thanks Eko, I guess ego makes as much sense as anything else.  It was a hot join, but not the home node.   It was the enemy's home node with 2 enemies camping it.   Seemed like a good place for more than one team mate.  /boggle

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Saighdiuir de na Faolchu Gorm
Eko
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Replied On: 01/08/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

ego is a mind trap.  ego makes you forget other ppl have separate and different thoughts, ego says my view point is the only view point.

I was a member of EG for quite a long time.  they insisted they were good at dungeons for example.  so i ran a few dungeons with them.  ACp1 should not take 50m...  run with pugs ACp1 is done in under 20m.  pugs have a wider ranger of experiences and are accepted into the group only if they perform at high enough skill lvl.  Then I hear Fion saying over and over how skilled EG members are and they shouldnt mix with the pugs.

it is the interaction with the world and other ppl that lets us learn and adapt.  the ego trap will say... you got all you need, dont listen to them. the opposite of ego lets you be open to new information; humility.

 

another one for my philosophy posts  ^_^

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Eko
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Replied On: 01/10/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

lesson 1:  3 Dimensional Combat

there are 3 core aspects to pvp, 3 directions the player needs to think about.

1 have a superior build.  this is preparation and understanding the meta.  for example there was a day when all I encountered was condi thief so to counter I slot elixir C which cleanses condis.  this gave me the superior build by letting me counter their builds.  also the obvious being lvl 80, geared as well as you can and understanding all your traits and skills. 

2 timing, tempo and rhythm.  when you dont control the tempo of a fight you feel it, you say to your self dmn this guy is all over me and I cant get a hit in!  certain classes are very tempo dependent like warrior and thief.  if you ever fought a hammer warrior, you see them lift into the air for an earth shaker, if you have a superior build you have a blind or knock back to use.  if you control the tempo you are also rdy to use the blind, kb or dodge and the warrior hits nothing.  other ways to control tempo are run away, break los, stealth, block and etc.

3 rotation.  a good rotation delivers high dmg that is more likely to hit.  this takes a good understanding of how the class skills work together, the ability to recognize the type of build you are up against and the experience to deliver the rotation when needed.  in a sense you cannot have a good rotation with out a superior build, and you cannot deliver the rotation with out good timing.  what rotation is that the other 2 are not; the planning, the setup, the connect, and the delivery.  at this point you are not thinking about how to land all your hits, you just have to land the first hit, the one that starts the rotation and the rest of the skills follow automatically.  this simplifies all the things you have to worry about in combat.  it lightens your mental burden and lets you widen your field of view.  taking on multiple foes out numbered is possible and you have attention to spare for being a strategic player.

 

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Ososa
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Replied On: 01/12/2015 at 09:59 PM PST
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Is there going to be other times when you run your event Eko, Sat. is not good for me, due to work.  3pm to 11pm CT. is when I work.  Would like to attend, PVP is one of my weak areas. And could use some help outfitting my warrior.

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Eko
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Replied On: 01/13/2015 at 09:59 PM PST

its posted on the calender for sunday too.

Im getting an idea!  a way to start practicing that doesnt require other ppl.

 

Recognizing animations is key in knowing how to react.  make some alts, go to heart of the mists and just study what the skills look like.

Ill work on a list of the most important to know.



» Edited on: 2015-01-14 21:24:02

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Grolyn
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Replied On: 02/14/2015 at 09:59 PM PST
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AHHHH! I had no clue about the melee assist and the auto targeting options being on by default! Thank you, thank you, thank you! 

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