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Your WvW Build and You: Busting Some Myths

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Sekkerhund
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Posted On: 06/12/2013 at 08:22 AM
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I was going to reply to another thread with this, but decided that it probably warrants its own thread.


I'm not going to epeen my street creds for the following information, and why you should take my advice, but suffice it to say that if you recognize the name "Sekkerhund", then you most likely have heard of me and probably trust that I know what I am talking about.  Being one of the first successful RvR commanders in the world helps build that kind of knowledge and experience.  ;)


Alrighty.


I see people mention this a lot and its finally bugged me enough to make a post:


You do NOT need "PVT" gear to effectively perform out in WvW. In a lot of cases, most cases IMO, using PVT can actually gimp your build and cause you to be less effective to your team in a fight. Whoever started this thing about needing "PVT Exotics" to do well in WvW is an idiot who does not know what they are talking about. Yes, I know exactly "why" they're claiming its the best to wear. They. Are. Wrong.


GSCH does not "zergball" and if you automatically throw yourself into PVT gear, you will find yourself being less effective to your team if you do not run a build that is both comfortable to you and have gear with proper stats that enhance your build.  You should wear stats that are appropriate for your build. You should learn to play your build (that comes with time and practice). If you feel that your build is not working for you, then change it and play with it until it does. If you don't know to what's a good build that might fit you, ask somebody, if you don't know anyone to ask, feel welcome to ask me.  If its a class that I don't have experience with, I probably know someone to refer you to.  You can make a post here on the family boards and many folks will be happy to help (plus it will help others).


Ok, so by "build", I mean the full package: Traits, Runes, Sigils and Stats.  Build for your style of play and what feels comfortable to you, there is no "one size fits all" or "PVT or Die" rule to being successful in any type of combat in this game.


Which reminds me about another myth I keep hearing: There is NO difference between "Heavy", "Medium" or "Light" armor. They're just different skins. They all have the exact same stats. Your character's armor, hitpoints, etc. are all based on the "Prefix" type of your gear and your Class (base class stats, traits, utility skills, etc).


edit: I was wrong with the above and need to research something, then come back and revisit it.  I made the mistake of going by something I'd assumed without testing the numbers, first.


If you want to know where to start and figure things out on your own:  Experiment with gear and builds in the sPVP zone (Heart of the Mists).  Its all free and you don't have to waste your gold buying gear and it will give you a good feel for what works best. I'm not a fan of it, since it doesn't allow me to customize a hybrid build, but I'm at a more advanced level and looking for different things our of my characteers. But for a basic point to begin, sPVP is a great way to find and test your WvW builds.



edit #2: "PVT" = Power, Vitality Toughness stats, aka Soldier prefix.  Its considered to be the highest defensive stats for gear that you can get in the game.  Power affects your direct damage. Vitality affects your maximum health and Toughness affects your armor. (click stat names for in-depth info)



» Edited on: 2013-06-13 03:31:58

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 09:01 AM PDT
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In all honesty, PVT has it's place. I run PVT to get into the back lines on my mesmer without being dead to drop that mad portal bomb. Before I went PVT I never even got close. There are screwdrivers, wrenches, and their are hammers Sure a wrench can do a hammers job but that doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job. The key is that you find how you want to play. If you need PVT then by all means go PVT. However if you don't intend on being in the deathball then you might go glass cannon build. But if you're going that route you need to be certain that you will always be the deepest man on the field. Just as PVT isn't the be all end all, nor is the flip side. PVT is very useful in WVW situations.

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ban Finsceal de na Iolair
Morigana
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 12:32 PM PDT

I am totally confounded even by the term "PVT" and have never even looked into it. I feel sad. I am an old dog, but I am willing to learn new tricks. I have seen the term thrown around, but always considered it was for sPvP and had nothing to do with me.

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Taoiseach de na Arach Glas
Foghladha
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 12:39 PM PDT
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Power+Vitality+Toughness

"It's not the loot and accolades you walk away with, it's the memories and friendships that you cherish forever." - Foghladha
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Ban Caomhnoir de na Aracos Corcra
Twilah
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 12:45 PM PDT
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I've felt more effective since changing Twilah's hair to the exclusive purple color. She's also wearing pirate boots these days :) Don't worry Morrigana, I didn't know what PVT wwas.either

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Caomhnoir de na Capall
Fatal
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 01:56 PM PDT

Twilah, thats one good looking Norn :) but back on topic. sekk can you list a build for me so i know how to list mine.

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Curadh de na Capall
Zabumba
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 02:29 PM PDT

Yeah, there are a lot of misconceptions about pvt, classes roles and a lot of other stuff. =P All kinds of gear have their place. I personally prefer pvt on my eng when in guild wvw events, so I can dive into the enemy zergs and distract them from the people they can actually kill with a lot less effort, while trowing a lot of cc. But this gear is the right gear for the build/situation I use. I´m pretty sure I would lose almost all duels if I used that gear for wvw roaming. Also, other day, I noticed a lot of people seems to believe only warriors or guardians can be in front lines. That´s not true. Just look at d/d eles. I love this game because there are tons of build variety, and most classes can perform both as front line bunkers or as ranged damage with a lot of variety in between.

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Ridire de na Capall Donn
Jay
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 03:17 PM PDT

PVT gear can be a good stepping stone until you become more skilled on a character or class and are able to stay alive with more of a glass cannon or whichever build you like.

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Lorgaire de na Faolchu
BRAVE
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 03:22 PM PDT

I didn't know about the PVT thing either. I don't think I would have even considered gearing that way for WvW even for my Warrior. Maybe for sPvP. I can see that setup being useful under certain conditions, but definitely not required. Obviously, gear is a big factor with survival and DPS, but there are many other factors that come in to play. Knowing the maps, your objectives, your skill rotations, your class abilities, your RL physical/mental abilities, your playstyle, etc... Personally I like mixing it up. With any class I like to get in the middle of big furballs with close up aoes or melee then dive and roll to the perimeters and hit with ranged, and look to res folks. Bottom line is that effective performance in team PvP is not just about how many kills you get, but how well you contribute to team objectives, and doing well at that does not require a specific loadout with any class.

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Curadh de na Ulchabhan Donn
Signal
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Replied On: 06/12/2013 at 11:19 PM PDT
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Fog and Jay hit the nail on the head. There are very valid reasons why almost every experienced WvW commander recommends high-survivability builds, starting with PVT or VPT (vitality being the primary stat) gear, for *new* players to WvW. Dead players = zero DPS, rallied enemies from the downed state, and they learn nothing while dead and/or running back. With all the AOEs from every direction going off in large scale WvW, situational awareness, movement, and placement are learned skills that only come with practice. Going through that learning period with maximum survivability is very helpful to the new player and his entire team. As for heavy, medium, and light armor, the stat bonuses are the same but the defense rating is not. They are more than just different skins.

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/13/2013 at 01:23 AM PDT
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Wow, I am wrong. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor#Defense_rating Let me sort something out before I comment further, I didn't have my ducks in a row and got embarrassed as a result. "In all honesty, PVT has it's place. I run PVT to get into the back lines on my mesmer without being dead to drop that mad portal bomb. Before I went PVT I never even got close." As a glamour build for portal duty, you want defenses. Its part of that build. I would not, and did not, run portal duty on Nelfaar, because she was a Confusion/Crit DPS build in full Rampagers. She would have sucked in her build if I ran PVT on her, just like she would have sucked as a portaler w/Rampager. Hence why I said that the gear must match the build, in which the team role is included in that term "build". So for a portal mesmer... yea, PVT all the way. "for *new* players to WvW. Key word there is "new" and I 98% agree. However, there are a lot of players who believe that PVT is the best gear for ANY player and that is the myth that I was addressing. I actually don't even recommend exotics for new players, because I believe its cheaper, and thus easier, to experiment with Rares to find out what stats fit your build and your play-style, best. And something that folks need to keep in mind, is that we do not play to win, we play to have fun. The successful commander is the one who has their team complimenting them on what a great time they had, at the end of their session. edit: I want to make perfectly clear that I am not saying that PVT gear does not have its uses, I am saying that contrary to what you read on the forums or in /map, /team chat, PVT gear is NOT the gear that "you must be wearing to be of any use to your team". I have seen that comment many times of forums, map chat, team chat, etc. and that is the "myth" that I am addressing.

» Edited on: 2013-06-13 03:07:43

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/13/2013 at 03:24 AM PDT
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~edited OP to correct my error and clarify what "PVT" means. @Fatal: List a build for what class? Folks should take whatever build they currently have out to WvW, see if they like it and have fun with it. If you don't like your build and are not having fun with it, then you're not going to want to go out into WvW and you're certainly not going to be effective. Remember folks, **FUN** first, because winning comes naturally if you're having fun. You're looser, more relaxed, more attentive and focused on what you're doing, versus wanting to leave, log off or go do something else.

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Curadh de na Ulchabhan Donn
Signal
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Replied On: 06/14/2013 at 08:00 AM PDT
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One of the recent live updates introduced gear with the Sentinel prefix and VPT stat combo, with vitality being the primary stat rather than power. Sentinel is now considered the most defensive gear set you can get. As a Guardian, the switch from PVT to VPT netted me almost 1000 health and I barely notice the reduction in damage output.

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Ard Tiarna de na Ulchabhan Buí
Elth
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Replied On: 06/14/2013 at 08:22 AM PDT
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Pvt gear has it's place, it depends on what profession and what trait build you are using. Obviously a condition focused character wont benefit from Pvt if his/her condition damage is only 300. It works very well on a Thief that works in a squad or larger zerg, surviving that initial burst is paramount, and nobody wants to be THAT guy or girl that rallies ten of your enemies because you ran glass cannon, downed a few but died in the process. There is times for Berserker's and Bunkers, bleeders and buffers, the trick is to understand what works best for you, what works best for your build, and whether you are roaming or working in a team. Roaming is all personal preference, playing in a team requires teamwork, taking other's into consideration when making your build and selecting your gear. How do you feel you can contribute to the squad is the question that should be in the forefront of your mind.

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/14/2013 at 03:57 PM PDT
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Elth = bingo, exactly the point I was trying to make. My brain to fingers is getting as bad as my brain to mouth. I keep hearing people (not in this guild, but in general and especially out in WvW chat) claiming that PVT is the end-all, be-all must-have gear for WvW gear or you're useless to your team, and that is what I ... well, its bullcrap. Whether it has its place or not is a given, I'm not stupid. I just don't want our newer members to think that they need to go get PVT gear to join us out in WvW. They do not. Gear for your build.

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Ard Tiarna de na Ulchabhan Buí
Elth
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Replied On: 06/14/2013 at 08:57 PM PDT
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Yeah I remember when they tried to push it on the Sanctum of Rall website and I politely told them how naive it was. Soldier's Pvt gear is good, but it's not the be-all/end-all. I'm still mixing and matching knights with soldiers with berserkers to find the right balance for the right build. I must spend about 9 or 12s every second day just playing with builds and gear. There really is more to this game than just a few cookie-cut builds if you dig deep enough.

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Curadh de na Ulchabhan Donn
Signal
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 10:19 AM PDT
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I believe PVT/VPT plays a more critical role than you all are giving it credit - primarily in larger fights. For solo and havoc duties, sure there is better gear. But at some point, to exert effective influence over the map you're fighting for, you must field a large, effective, and *sturdy* force. Eventually your large force must be brought to bear against the opponent's large force and structures. During such large fights damage output is multiplied and scales with the size of the forces in question. Damage absorption... not so much (except for Guardians). Exacerbating the problem is that most of that damage is AOE and AOE condition, which means everyone will be seeing incoming damage. Player skill in battlefield awareness makes a big difference but still cannot mitigate the need for sturdy builds, for everyone but the best of the best. These large battles between evenly matched forces almost always break down into battles of attrition. As the two force "dance", circling each other, juking, back peddling, turning and hitting, etc..., everyone will maneuver though a lot of damage. Experience has proven that the force with more PVT wins the attrition war. Even worse is attempting to run the labyrinth of siege at keeps without PVT, especially as a squishier class. Keep in mind that weapons, runes, sigils, accessories, jewels, and traits still offer you a lot of room to play with your build even while concentrating your armor on PVT/VPT.

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Ard Tiarna de na Ulchabhan Buí
Elth
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 01:42 PM PDT
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I definitely plays an important role in a zerg Signal, I don't think anyone is disputing the fact. If I'm running with a zerg in Tier 1, I am not only running a full set of soldiers gear (including accessories, rings, amulet and ascended backpack) I am also running 20 points in acrobatics for the extra vitality and running poultry/lemongrass food for the extra vitality. My maxed out health still barely reaches 23k and I still go down if I accidently zig instead of zag and end up in a static field. This only applies in a Tier 1 zerg however. If I were to use that build with that gear while roaming or scouting, I would probably get owned. So I keep knights and berserker gear on me to interchange on the fly. If you don't run Pvt in a zerg, doing the kind of things we do for family events, there is a good chance you will be the one rallying the enemy. However, we as a family do not enforce or dictate how others in the guild play the game. All we can do is encourage and teach.

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 03:52 PM PDT
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Signal, you need to come out with us for our Club G and other Elder-run WvW events. If in any way shape or form I had proof that PVT was so critical to performing effectively in WvW, then I would have never written any of this. I'll take a step further and say that maybe the "need" for PVT is a reflection on the capabilities and skill of the commander(s) of that particular squad. Seriously, folks can argue the math and theory all they want, but I don't go by math or theory, I go by what I physically witness as being effective in a firefight. Assuming the enemy pain trains that we encounter are running these fancy little formations and running PVT gear... I'm just not seeing it. When we get beat, we are beaten by 2-3 times our numbers and no gear of any type can overcome that kind of simple math. IF its equal to twice our numbers, we're usually the last ones spiking and I firmly believe that's due to our folks being confident and comfortable in their builds and with their commanders. So, for the novice folks reading this, please, just build for what makes you comfortable and don't be intimidated by all this talk of needing this or that gear and build. I'll trust 20 people who are comfortable with their builds at my back, before I'll trust 40 that think they need XXX build + gear to win fights. edit: I'm also still working on the armor/class numbers. I think folks are going to be rather surprised to see just how much of a difference your class's traits, runes, sigils, skills and utilities offset the base armor class values of heavy, medium and light armor as shown in the wiki entry for Defense Rating

» Edited on: 2013-06-17 15:58:03

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Laoch de na Iolair Dubh
Pookha
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 05:41 PM PDT
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So here's my 2 cent. There is no cookie cutter answer you can give someone as to whether or not they should run PVT/VTP in WvW. Frankly it depends on the role the person is trying to fill in a fight. If you are a sniper then you should never be using VTP, You may be able to use PVT, but I'm sure you will need gear with more damage stats. Now let's say you are on the melee train and you decide you wanna run full zerkers gear. you may feel like your doing a lot of damage, but if your ranged misses their CC then your are gonna melt and when you die you will rally every person you dealt all that damage to. Each set of gear is intended for a specific role while combined with a specific play style. I will always tell someone that if they are constantly dying while trying to preform their role then they should try some PVT/VTP gear to help their survivability. as you get better at this game and learn where to be in a fight you can start to substitute some of that high Vit and Tough gear for more damage or support depending on their spec. Commanders often tell their members they need more PVT/VTP because in a fight they may see half of their zerg dead while they themselves are still alive. It's all to often not about player skill rather it's about gear. Not to sound harsh, but from a commander standpoint in WvW you are no use to me dead. I never want anyone to feel like they can't spec and gear out however they want, but you need to know what you are trying to accomplish with you build/spec and and theory craft a build that works best for that role.

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Curadh de na Ulchabhan Donn
Signal
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 07:55 PM PDT
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Great discussion guys! Eth, I think we're pretty much on the same page. I know it's not Gaiscioch's way to dictate builds and gear, but on the other hand I think there're enough members who wouldn't mind doing so in an effort to build an organized unit within the guild. The feedback I've been getting from the workshops has been very good. I'm not talking about mandatory build/gear lists, but more just guidelines and a basic framework for armor. Sekk, I used to run very frequently with GSCH but with the move to Club G and the midnight to 2am timeslot, I've been unable. That's 3am to 5am my time on the east coast. I can maybe make that once a month and in fact I just ran with Fog and Co. last Sunday morning. And your point about theory crafting v.s. real world experience is well taken. In fact, it's that real world experience that has lead to wider use of PVT among the guilds that WvW daily. Pookha is right on with his commander's point of view. Again, a great sharing of ideas and information.

» Edited on: 2013-06-18 06:46:04

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Ridire de na Fhiaigh Oráiste
Musclor
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 08:20 PM PDT

I agree with the fact that gear is mostly dependant on what your leaders are running. If your leader wants to run a zerg 'ball' and is giving orders to that effect then you SHOULD be wearing PVT, otherwise you can't follow the leader... This is especially true if it is a dedicated group where most peep will be in PVT and thus you will be left on an island if you are paper tiger and nobody will defend you... However if you have a leader who runs a 'range group' and a 'melee group' or your part of a commando style party then go with whatever you want, as everything will be needed anyway

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Elth
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Replied On: 06/17/2013 at 09:48 PM PDT
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I should point out (If I haven't already) that I personally use Pvt gear in almost all circumstances in WvW. The only time I don't is if I am roaming in small groups, and even then I miss the extra health.

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Ban Finsceal de na Iolair
Morigana
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Replied On: 06/24/2013 at 12:32 AM PDT

Thanks all for the clarification....  I actually usually run PVT gear on my Engy.  I like to stand in the middle of the fight with the flame thrower going full tilt and swap out to weapons - then to elixer gun - then back to FT - it is a heal/kill build and I need the Vit/T just to survive - and actually - it works 75% of the time - and when it doesn't - usually everyone else in the squad wiped also.

 

I am also a tad slow on the reflexes and for me to run in WvWvW I need the build to compensate.  I trait into burns, FT, and Elixer Gun.  OF course I will have to see what the new balance will do for/to me.  I'm hoping pistol/shield is more viable since I really love throwing a shield at Defenders/Invaders - I smile each time it hits one :)



» Edited on: 2013-06-24 00:33:50

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Laoch de na Iolair Buí
Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 06/24/2013 at 03:14 AM PDT
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If it works for your build and play style, then go with it.  

My intent here was to bust the myth that people "need PVT gear" to do well in WvWvW, regardless of their class and build.  I see comments about this almost every day, especially in LA /map chat.

Its a game and in any game, people have to learn from their successes and failures in order to play better.  But if a commander is too focused on their own ego to accept the fact that they will have novice players following them and that they'll make mistakes while learning their builds, then they're not worth following.  

Just because a commander has 40+ players following them, does not mean that they can just go with Zerg Strategy Plan A and have it be an automatic success.  A good commander will be able to read his team's capabilities after a couple of fights and then work out the best strategies to take advantage of his team's strengths and weaknesses.  But, that's going off-topic, but tbh, I think that GSCH has some of the best commanders out there, because they do have that attitude.  :)

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Replied On: 06/24/2013 at 10:45 AM PDT
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Can we at least agree at this point that the person who first recommended PVT is not an idiot and the commanders who recommend it are not wrong? Furthermore, I think you also need to be very careful in questioning other commander's motives and abilities. SoR's WvW community is built upon mutual respect and GSCH especially should be setting the bar high.

If you think you're right then the best way to get others' attention will be to organize and field a force without the vitality and toughness gear being central. Join the SoR community at large and take part in the organized WvW effort. Then field your force, defeat the enemy forces in open field fights, conquer your map and raise our PPT above that of the enemy. Results speak and if you can do all this without the PVT gear being central to your army's gear then I promise the rest of us commanders will take notice. It's not about ego, it's about what works. And more power to you if you can buck the mainstream trends and find something that works better. Lead and we'll follow.



» Edited on: 2013-06-24 10:47:10

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Kaytlin
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Replied On: 06/24/2013 at 12:50 PM PDT
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I think the bottom line on this discussion is that PVT gear has its place in WvW. Be it for the newer WvW player who doesnt have any idea of how they want to play in WvW, or what gear to have, or for the experienced player who has found that the PVT spec works well for them.  I personally run a slight variation on the PVT for my necro. I run knights armor with some PVT accys, etc.  I try to keep my Toughness up to help me survive the hammer trains that we are seeing frequently. It would appear than these hammer train zergs are glass cannons, and once they run past they dont seem to last too long.  Many commanders on the field are very effective against these zergs because they keep encouraging their teams to stay out of the middle, and attack the outsides.  Without some toughness and vitality you will not survive against these damage trains.  

IMHO

Caitlin

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Replied On: 06/24/2013 at 07:03 PM PDT
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If you think you're right then the best way to get others' attention will be to organize and field a force without the vitality and toughness gear being central.

Club Gaiscioch, every Friday and Saturday night and 3 Thursdays a month.  Spartan's Sat night event.  The various WvW events that other GSCH commanders run.  *I* don't have to prove anything, because *we've* already been proving it.  GSCH fields excellent commanders, some of the best I've run with, and no, I do not count myself among them.

Also, no, I am not changing or taking back any wording I've used in this thread.  I'm blunt and honest with my opinions and its all generalized, so if anyone wants to take personal issue with anything I've said, then that's a personal problem of theirs, that is out of my control (and tbbh, care).  I am not going to worry over carefully crafting my posts to ensure that no one could possibly ever take offense.

What I'm seeing from quite a few replies, are folks who are reading the letters of what I am writing, but not understanding the words.  I can take guesses as to why, but it doesn't matter,  folks will either take my advice, or discard it.

New folks: You do not need PVT gear and you do not need to be level 80, to go out and have fun in WvWvW.  If someone tells you otherwise, find someone else to follow around.  Go forth, make corpses (even some of your own) and have fun, don't let minmaxing players stand in the way.

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Replied On: 06/25/2013 at 10:31 AM PDT
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Using Club-G as your example makes my point for me. My experience running with the group is that far too many members die instantly upon first contact with the enemy. This occurs with a high enough level of consistency to be a problem. A problem that's totally unrelated to the skill of our field commanders. In fact, being that GSCH accomplishes as much as we do even in light if this, is a testament to Fog's ability to lead. Moving the individuals who die too quickly/frequently toward toughness/vitality gear is the first step toward helping them survive longer. Surviving longer will help them gain the experience they need to become better and will benefit the group as a whole.

Let me be clear and concise. The above is exactly why commanders recommend PVT. Not because they're idiots, wrong, lack in commanding skills, or are min-maxing. We are in Tier 1 WvW. The enemies we face are unforgiving. We can't afford to be naive in dishing out advice and we definitely can't affort name calling and lack of respect among our community, even if it's crudely hidden behind generalized comments. You don't have to carefully craft your posts to ensure that no one takes offense, you just have to leave the offensive comments out.

 

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Replied On: 06/26/2013 at 11:17 PM PDT
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When I'm out in a WvW zone, and I see a "commander" saying in chat something like: "If you're not in PVT gear and not level 80, then get off this map because you're not helping your team" ... then yes, they are an idiot and a bad commander.  That is something that I feel very strongly about and I have seen similar comments too many times, to not want to say anything against it.  Anyone that WvWs knows there are some really crappy commanders who bought a book, especially ones who say stupid crap like that, so I highly doubt that I'm harming any "server relations" with other commanders by saying it.  I'd appreciate not having it blown out of context and snowballed into a huge issue, so how about folks drop further discussion about it.

As far as Club G having so many dying that "its a problem"... folks are not dying because they're not running PVT gear, its because a lot of us are NOT level 80.  What gear we have as low levels is moot because we wear whatever happens to close to our current level.  Some may wear Rares, but most wear Greens, some even Blues.  There are usually only 20-25 of us, and we go up against some of the large and organized zergs.  Yes, we may get squashed now and then, but we also manage our fair share of wiping them.  Yes, we may not be as full of "winner's attitude" as some of the other hardcore WvW guilds, but the one thing that sets us apart, is that regardless of winning or wiping, we have fun.  You will never hear anyone complaining about bad strategy if we get roflstomped, we'll just laugh it off and try something else.

What some people seem to not understand is that GSCH plays for fun.  FUN... is the only goal behind any of our events.  Our events are like huge family picnics, we're there to socialize, have fun and enjoy doing something as a community of gamers, a family.  One thing that outsiders will find common with GSCH commanders, is not that they are literal leaders, but that they are organizers and decision makers, their only goal is to maintain order and direction to the chaos of having 40 players trying to achieve a set of goals.

Now, the reason that GSCH does so well for Club G isn't because Fog is some uberly skilled commander (he is highly skilled and experienced, for the record), its because we function as a team, much like a football team.  Fog is the quarterback, the decision maker, the one with the overall game plan.  That is his strength, while others of us have settled into roles that are based in the strength of our own particular skills, experience and knowledge.  As a team, we have a synergy that allows us to not only do well in the "underdog" situations that we are always facing, it also allows us to have fun and feel like a gaming community... a family.

Yes, SOR is a Tier 1 server and I am sure that the other WvW guilds place a lot of importance on winning, with the best tactics, the best builds, the best gear and the best players.  The Gaiscioch Family does not.  We place all of our importance on having fun... and you know what, we do very well with our attitude and approach.  We have a lot of successes and we have a lot of fun.

So no, I am not giving "naive advice".  I am telling the members of our family, who are new to WvW and might be concerned about performing well, to not worry about it.  They don't need to spend lots of gold on extra PVT gear, because they will do just fine in whatever gear they've already chosen for their build, and ultimately be better off by not changing anything and getting experienced with what they have.  Based on my experience, which is hardly small and I see no reason to go into details, I can guarantee that it is sound advice.  If anyone wants to disagree, fine, they are most welcome to their own opinions.

So to wrap up this thread: to perform at your best for any Gaiscioch Family event, PvE or WvW, all that anyone has to gear for, is just to have fun.

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Replied On: 06/26/2013 at 11:59 PM PDT
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No use beating a dead horse, we'll just have to agree to disagree. See you on the battlefield!

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Replied On: 06/27/2013 at 11:35 PM PDT

"When I'm out in a WvW zone, and I see a "commander" saying in chat something like: "If you're not in PVT gear and not level 80, then get off this map because you're not helping your team" ... then yes, they are an idiot and a bad commander."  Sek

 

I have to agree with this - and honestly I probably won't run with them - I don't need the attitude.

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Replied On: 06/28/2013 at 10:45 AM PDT
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Fortunately for us such a scenario is a hypothetical and I feel strongly that we should endeavor to keep it that way.

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Q
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Replied On: 06/28/2013 at 04:53 PM PDT
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That's one of the reasons I have problems with GW2 in general. I dislike that we have a population cap for WvW because it makes all of those things an issue. Because there is finite population it lends credence to the argument that everyone should be doing X, Y, or Z for the benefit of the realm. In DaoC and Warhammer you had the freedom to run off solo and wander around, to set up some group vs group fights, or to just smell the roses.

In GW2 though, with the population cap, it does kind of matter. If the other side has all of their people doing stuff, then we put our own side at a disadvantage by indulging in our own desires to play our way. This could be extended to gear and spec. If you're not getting the most out of your toon then you're putting your side at a disadvantage. Then it could be extended to performance. That if you don't have X skill level you shouldn't be playing because you put your side at a disadvantage.

I hate that.

I do like to play in a small group that performs well. But I hate the loss of freedom this implies. I dislike that someone can say to me that I'm not helping the realm when I'm rushing about taking supply depots with my small group and looking for fights. I hate also that I feel a bit guilty too.

So I kinda feel that it's the fault of arenanet moreso than just the jerk guy hollaring in /team.

Also, PVT is mainly good if you intend to get hit a lot. Otherwise it's just wasted utility. ;)

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Replied On: 06/28/2013 at 08:29 PM PDT
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Kavor - At the end of the day it is my opinion that the most important and positive actions we can take for our server are those that foster server unity. That starts with mutual respect for one another. So diplomacy is the name of the game when interacting with any community at large. For my take on your questions, I would never join those calling such a commander an idiot because name calling is just not my thing, for many reasons starting with it being one of the least diplomatic approaches to communication. It might be said that he's a bad commander for making unreal demands and that's an argument I could support to a degree. But to be completely candid, under certain circumstances it may be justified to ask a group to leave the WvW battleground. How one goes about asking is key.

For instance, on Wednesday we had around ten GSCH members zoned in to SoR borderlands. We had to sit in a queue to get there but most of us finally got in. We were running a workshop and taking up space in a full borderland while not appreciably assisting our team's efforts. I communicated this to the field commander for the zone. He agreed we should stay because training up players is a positive thing for our server. However, if the poop were to hit the fan and more defenders would have been needed, he would have asked us to leave and it would have been fully justified and proper.

Q - I think your points are valid only for Tier 1. Prior to SoR being in Tier 1 most of this stuff didn't matter and doesn't matter on lower ranked servers. I doubt the WvW community of Eredon Terrace cares as long as you're out there. As to your last statement regarding PVT, it's impossible to be in Tier 1 WvW without getting hit a lot... unless you sit in the spawn keep all evening. In which case you may have a responsible commander ask you to leave, nicely of course! :-P

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Oh don't get me wrong, I do think it's a bad idea to go out there in pure zerkers unless you have a method of mitigating it beyond stats. But Exclusive PVT armor is the purview of the deep diver attract all fire and come out swinging role. Of course you're going to get hit in WvW. But the whole time nobody's touching you and you're trying to do dps, then all of that utility set in VT goes to waste. In some ways that's a defeatist attitude, but also everyone trying to just outlast everyone else tends to lead to a passive mentality overall.

I think that's mainly why so many groups of WvW people often don't stand and fight, but instead try to run to the nearest supply depot/tower/keep or to just survive until more come. The mental approach isn't to kill your enemy, it's more not to die. That sort of outlook can be cancerous. Running around in our small group we've been able to beat larger numbers so often primarily because people break and run so easily simply because with mesmers and thieve's guild and the like we can present a large footprint of a large force.

Anyways, that's all just a silly thought exercise.

Bottom line is that I just wish there wasn't a cap on WvW.

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 01:36 AM PDT
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Interesting view! I'm not sure if I follow your point about the defeatist attitude though. On the flip side of the same token, it could be said that the whole time you're dead because you couldn't survive initial contact, all the PP or PC armor stats are doing you no good.

I don't mind the cap on WvW, especially since Anet's hardware can't handle the current number of players as it is. WvW would be so much more enjoyable without the server lag during big fiexpect, especially on EB in Stonemist.

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 01:54 AM PDT
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Well clearly the key is to not die! Voila.

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 09:32 AM PDT
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Interesting views.

there are a number of questions that are raised by the different viewpoints here.  One question that sprung to mind is this.

I paid for a game with my own money to play with my family (gsch) how i want to play.  At what point is it "okay" for another person (who did not buy the game for me) to ask me ever so sweetly and nicely to please leave the wvw area??  Is it my fault that the home of GSCH was catapulted to tier 1 and that we are a top ranked wvw server??

Now please understand that i was a min maxer type of a player.  guild wars 2 not so much but i still did a bit of research and played with a very skilled skirmish group.  The question doesn't imply my views but it is a very important question considering all the GSCH stands for.  I believe sek's main point was to reassure all the family members who are intimidated by wvw and who scare off easily when somebody pulls a jerk card out of their hat to call them out via /w's or /t.  Seeking to understand first and not be understood first is the key to good communication.

its your fun is impeding my fun so you need to stop having your fun so i can have my fun type of thing.

My recommendation is that if you are new to wvw just run gsch events or make sure you have thick skin to let stuff roll off of you when you are out flying solo.

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 11:39 AM PDT

I run a straight zerk build on my thief. It wasn't easy at first, and I took some heat for it from some of our non-guild leaders on SoR. The problem they seem to have is if you die, you rally the opposition's downed players. It's a legitimate complaint. However, I knew that was the build I wanted to run, and that it would take some time to learn what I could survive and what I couldn't, and it's paid off in the long run because I've learned those things and become good at it. There's been maybe once in the past month where I've died when I wouldn't have if I had been running a more defensive build, and it was a tactical error on my part (dagger stormed into a zerg because I misjudged their remaining health, and died. Rallied some of their guys and Indo let me have it in chat, and deservedly so!). Long story short, run whatever you want, but if you're running a glass set make sure that you're learning how to play that style. Every battle becomes situational on what you can and can't do, and honestly it's alot more difficult to do. There isn't much reward for a zerg when you're running it either, which is why you probably see so many commanders shouting for PVT.

» Edited on: 2013-06-29 11:39:43

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 11:43 AM PDT
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Q - Oh if only I could master that! LOL! :-P

Ruwund - It is a valid question and the simple answer is that no commander or player has the authority to force you to leave the WvW arena or play a certain way. Period. Do as you want.

That's the simple answer but there is a complicated answer as well and it has to do with human relations. There are two camps in this discussion - those who place a higher priority on the team and victory and those who place a higher priority on their personal preferences. On SoR we have made great strides, through great effort, over the past six months to foster a healthy understanding and working relationship between the two camps. That has meant both sides toning down the rhetoric and placing more effort on understanding each other's point of view.

So is it okay for another person to ask you to do something you don't want to do in a game? Yes, I think it is. Just as it's okay for you to decline. As long as both sides speak sweetly and nicely then there won't be a problem. :-P

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 01:53 PM PDT

"So is it okay for another person to ask you to do something you don't want to do in a game? Yes, I think it is. Just as it's okay for you to decline. As long as both sides speak sweetly and nicely then there won't be a problem. :-P "

 

I can agree with this also.  Let's face it - it is a co-op game in WvWvW and if you are going to follow a commander it is perfectly fine for them to ask you to follow orders and behave a certain way... the "jerk" part comes into play by the "way" they ask.  It isn't that they ask.  A "bad" commander won't last long since no one will eventually follow them.  And on the flip side, there are "jerk" followers also - the best thing we can do is all play nice together. 

 

I have always contended that if you have fun with your build - you will play it better since you enjoy it.  My builds are always a compromise between damage and survival.  It is always a fine balance for me to get  them to the point that I survive most of the encounters that my leaders survive and do enough damage/healing to be a benefit while I'm surviving AND still have fun.  The main reason I play my engy so much is the "fun" aspect.  If I am playing another character in WvWvW and thinking the whole time ... "I wish I was on my engy!" then there is a problem with them - and that usually happens.

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Replied On: 06/29/2013 at 03:21 PM PDT
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i agree with the line morigana quoted also :).

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Replied On: 06/30/2013 at 07:04 AM PDT
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Ruwund pretty much nailed it on the head.  I'm glad that someone gets what I'm trying to get across, I was starting to worry.

The reason I posted this thread... well, its a little long and complex to explain, fully.  The short and sweet version is that I've seen different versions of the comment that I mentioned made in both WvW chat and Lion's Arch chat, and also discussions I've had with family members who had seen us talking about the Family events and wanted to join us, but had been told by some of these "hardcore" WvW commanders and their guilds, that they needed to be level 80 and have PVT gear.  (edit: clarifying that it was when they'd gone out into WvW and asked questions in chat)

Its not hypothetical, its what some of those jackwagons have been telling people who ask questions and its been going on for a few months.  Minutes before I decided to post this, I saw a conversation in Lion's Arch chat that became the last straw for me, especially since I had just been trying to field similar questions from a family member a few days before.

So just to be clear, this has absolutely nothing to do with Signal or his workshop.  I don't know what he teaches and its not my concern or place to comment, even if I did.  I want to be clear on that, because the defensive and condescending tone to some of his replies have been puzzling me and I don't want anyone to think this is a deal between he and I or something.



» Edited on: 2013-06-30 07:11:27

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Replied On: 06/30/2013 at 09:35 AM PDT

That's one thing that is pretty nice about this guild... you really don't see alot of people telling others what to do or how to play.  It's becoming common practice in the WvW community to "strongly encourage" PVT gear, so it's probably good to have the conversation about it at least.  That way people like myself who have no interest in it outside of maybe having a set available for situational use, can see both sides.  In all honesty the typical fight in your average group is going to come down to numbers and tactics as opposed to an individual's gear anyway, so i can't imagine alot of people are going to take it too seriously. 

» Edited on: 2013-06-30 09:35:58



» Edited on: 2013-06-30 09:36:31

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Replied On: 06/30/2013 at 01:36 PM PDT

I just want to state that our Commanders are friggin awesome - and if you listen to them you will survive the "pain trains" regardless of the gear you are wearing.   Fog, Pooka, Spartan et al will always tell you what to do. 

 

I learned about Pre-emptive CC from Spartan and when to this do have not forgotten it or it's value.  I am an "old dog" but tell me enough times "here they come - lay down the CC" and eventually I learn the trick.  I learned the value of choke points and traps from Fog - that was a long time ago in Warhammer but it still applies no matter what the game or battlefield.  Lead your enemies into traps and the train derails.   I don't know how many times our commanders have directed us to sweep around the back - or cut through the middle of their lines since the middle and rear are their weak points.  Or when all else fails... Run Away!

We have done astounding things while usually outnumbered - but the Gaiscioch way is to play how you want and Have Fun - and we do

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Replied On: 06/30/2013 at 06:52 PM PDT

I run my standard pve gear when I go into wvw.  It is definitely not "optimal", it is focused on +magic item drop, +condition damage, etc. for my mesmer.  I am usually one of the last to drop and I generally can position myself to do the things that are needed just fine and I can definitely feel my contribution being made when I play.  Could I be "more effective" by eeking out every last possible "optimal" point by building up gear designed to focus in certain areas for survivability or some other kind of possibly "more effective" wvw build? Probably.  But, as I said, I make solid contributions, I do well in fights when I am slightly outnumbered on my own or in small teams (provided my layout is not set up for group support like it is when I do Gsch events).  Generally when I die it is because I was going to die pretty much no matter what, not because my gear was sub-optimal.  Of course, I am wearing a full set of Lyssa exotics, but that is what I like to wear based on what is currently available to me and it fits my current build and playstyle well.  I kinda built myself to be able to play well in pve and wvw so there are some tradeoffs I suppose.

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Replied On: 07/01/2013 at 04:58 AM PDT

Newer member here.  I, too, have learned a lot running with this Family and its great commanders.  It may espouse a casual philosophy, but the leadership and tactics being exercised are quite advanced.  One of the good things about not telling people how to play and not being "hard-core only" is that people likely won't burn out as fast. 

Using hard-core raiding guilds as an example, when one raids several nights a week at the very limit their group can handle, and have to play a precise build and use precise tactics, burnout becomes a huge factor.  But helping people have fun helps ensure they'll come back...and keep coming back.  Also, if people are having fun, they'll usually want to learn more and improve at what they're doing.  It also creates a less rigid atmosphere in which people can experiment with what works for them, and innovate new ideas, builds, etc.

In fact, I would wager many of the tactics the Family has used are born from this carefree attitude of having fun over doing things the "proper" way.  I bet not every portal bomb works exactly as intended, but they're more fun than sitting on a wall all night.  And when they work, they REALLY work. 

Last, I'll use my own situation as an example of why I, like you, think the Family's approach works.  When I transferred from Tarnished Coats, I signed up to some WvW events while my Mesmer was in his 50s and in Power/X gear.  I was welcomed and not ridiculed at all.  After having a lot of fun, I wanted to get better and not let my team down.  Since then, I have hit 80, adopted a support Mesmer build, and have Toughness on most of my gear and Vitality on the others.  I probably don't need PVT gear per se, since I'm on the back line, but I'm sturdy enough to hold my own with Toughness OR Vitality on all my gear.

 

PS:  One more thing.  The cap on WvW queues used to bother me as well, but it's not so bad.  When you get to T4 and below, there are no queues and certainly no pressure to "help your server compete" if you don't want to.  While this is a multiplayer game and one would hope that people want to help their team since they are voluntarily playing a multiplayer game, it's ultimately your money you spent on the game. 

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Sekkerhund
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Replied On: 07/01/2013 at 05:43 AM PDT
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Newer member here.  I, too, have learned a lot running with this Family and its great commanders.  It may espouse a casual philosophy, but the leadership and tactics being exercised are quite advanced.  One of the good things about not telling people how to play and not being "hard-core only" is that people likely won't burn out as fast.

Best statement in this thread (emphasizing the bold part).  It makes me especially happy to see newer family members understanding what I've been trying to convey in this thread.  :)

 



» Edited on: 2013-07-01 05:47:10

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Signal
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Replied On: 07/01/2013 at 07:46 AM PDT
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Welcome Kell, to SoR and GSCH! We're glad to have you. Your post is very well thought out and stated. I like that! I especially agree with the points about hardcore burnout and the ability of the individual within a casual environment to experiment with what works best for them. I would say those are the two greatest benefits of our casual nature and outweigh the benefits of the hardcore philosophy in which everyone is told what and how to play by the leadership. I do believe however, that there are some lessons we can take from the hardcore crowd and adapt to our casual nature which would be of some benefit.



» Edited on: 2013-07-01 07:48:07

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Kell
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Replied On: 07/01/2013 at 11:42 AM PDT

Signal said:
I do believe however, that there are some lessons we can take from the hardcore crowd and adapt to our casual nature which would be of some benefit.

Absolutely!  People who have put in hours of research and time definitely should have some wisdom that can be passed on.  I've already learned a lot just from my move to T1, and more with GSCH's commanders.


 

Sekkerhund said:
It makes me especially happy to see newer family members understanding what I've been trying to convey in this thread.  :)

Consider it conveyed. :)


 

I know there's some quibbling over semantics and such in this thread, but it looks to me like everyone seems open to letting people play how they want, with some suggesting there are lessons that can be learned from experienced WvWers.  This makes a lot of sense!  There's also a lot of passion being shown in this thread, which tells me people care about the Family and its reputation.  With these kinds of leaders and veterans leading the way, it would seem to me we're in good hands.

This is a much better alternative to apathy.

Thanks for the welcome all!

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Signal
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Replied On: 07/01/2013 at 09:10 PM PDT
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Kavor. Yes I plan to but my company just landed a new client which means work is going to be hectic for the next week or two. When I get a chance to continue the workshops I'll post them on the calendar.

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